Date   

Whats the true safety record for Rutan Designs?

Ryszard Zadow
 

The reason for the subject of this post comes from the comment Dick VanGrunsven made at the 2019 RAFE forum "The Future of Rutan Designs Symposium". Dick stated the safety record of "orphaned designs:" was not good. Though I believe we have more support out there than most "orphaned designs" like it of not, we technically fit in that definition so I was wondering if anyone has every actually crunched the numbers by searching the NTSB and/or Air Safety Foundation databases? 

We're hosting that forum again this year. The lead in topic will be about insurance and the aging Pilot. Tracy Martin of Aircraft Insurance Resources will be on the stage and hopefully a few other experts like we had in 2019. Tracy will discuss the dilemma many Pilots face now and we all may one day. 

See y'all there July 31, 0830 am , Forum Stage 5 

If you missed that 2019 forum the full recording of it is on YouTube at The Future of Rutan Designs Symposium AirVenture 2019 




Re: OSHKOSH - Early Birds Canard Dinner

Terry Schubert
 

I loved your -,"Please don't build airplanes"comment. 
 
Sorry I won't be at OSH this year.
 
 
Terry 


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "cozygirrrl via groups.io" <cozygirrrl@...>
To: "canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io" <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>,  "cozy_builders@..." <cozy_builders@...>,  "forum@..." <forum@...>
Subject: Re: [c-a] OSHKOSH - Early Birds Canard Dinner
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2021 18:57:25 +0000 (UTC)

Last chance people! We're leaving St Louis and will be on the road to Oshkosh
on Thursday July 15th. Please RSVP before that if you can it would be really helpful
in determining how much to prepare. We are nearing one 15 gallon pot of Jambalaya.
If you want plenty of return trips to the serving line, sign up,
get your canard friends to sign up too and we'll plan on a second pot.

So far we have about 120 RSVP's, keep them coming. Thank you to those who follow
instructions for RSVP format, to the rest of you, please do not build airplanes.

I drove up to Oshkosh the night before Camp Scholler opening day to make certain we'd have
the usual site for the dinner, mission accomplished! It is beautiful up there.
 
Cozy Girrrls 2nd Annual Early Birds Jambalaya Jam
            (a CG / CSA / RAFE group event for Canard Enthusiasts )
============================================================
 
If you are coming to Airventure 2021 Ohkosh and are going to be there early in the
week (Tuesday) and hoping to connect with other canardians, this is the place to be!
 
WHAT's FOR DINNER:
Jambalaya is a Cajun/Creole dish, it is made in a huge cast iron kettle, it is
mildly to somewhat spicy-NOT HOT... unless I turn my back on Bob Tilley and he spikes it.
Contains chicken, pork, sausage, veg and rice.
A side of creamy coleslaw comes with it.
Pro Tip: Jambalaya goes really well with ice cold beer.
  
LOCATION:
We will be at our campsite on North Doolittle providing we get our usual spot
otherwise we will put out the word via grapevine where we will be located,
as always look for the little red truck. Pictures of truck and map at bottom.
 
WHEN:
Tuesday July 27th, social hour begins around 5 PM BYOB-EER & chair.
 
$10 "donation" per person, hopefully food prices have not doubled, we'll know when we get there.
PLEASE bring a chair this year!
 
RSVP:
...as always, this is a test, based on previous years RSVP responses we have determined 70%
of you either drink a lot when you do your email or your skills at following the
simplest of written instructions are questionable, ...even if they come with "M" drawings.
We wish to thank the remaining 30% for making our lives easier.
So, if you are thinking of coming to the dinner, DO NOT HIT THE REPLY BUTTON!
Instead, please send us an email with a one line response:
 
Please do it like this:
 
email to: CozyGirrrl@...
Subject: RSVP
Body of text: # of people, name(s), email, cell
 
EXAMPLE of text: 2, Chrissi, Randi, CozyGirrrl@..., 867-5309
 
That way there will be enough food and beverage, you wouldn't want to run out would you?
There is a threshold where we may need to make a 2nd pot, so real numbers are important.
 
IMPORTANT:
1. If you RSVP, please make sure you do receive a "Thank You!" email from us within 48 hours.
2. Assume picnic tables are not available so bring a chair if you are able to scrounge one.
We will try to bring tables and any local people who bring some will be really appreciated!
3. No vehicles, there is absolutely no parking available, you must park in the very near by
BLUE lot and walk.
Towards the end of the day it is free, park up as close as you can get to the corner by the
Fly In Theater there is a walk through, very convenient.
4. Bicycles, golf carts, strollers etc must be off the road and not on our neighbors campsites.
5. We do not know of anyone who will be donating alcohol so feel free to BYOB or pass a
hat and we will make sure there is a run to Walmart for ICE COLD BEER.
There will be coolers full of ice.
6. =No animals!= ,we LOVE animals, just not when & where we are preparing and serving food.
7. If you RSVP in the 10 days before Airventure you will probably not receive an
acknowledgement from us we're either on the road or already there and EAA WiFi is spotty.
8. Count on mosquitoes! Spray yourself.
 
You will need your chair and maybe a blanket for the movie next door,The Fly In Theater at the end of the street will feature the classic movie "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo"
Count on mosquitoes! Spray yourself.
.... or stick around and socialize!
 
Our trusty band of well trained and highly skilled volunteers look forward to seeing you all there!
The Little Red Truck for those who were looking for a red mini-pickup:
 

 This is an approximate location for where we try to be each year:
 
 
 

 


Re: OSHKOSH - Early Birds Canard Dinner

cozygirrrl
 

Last chance people! We're leaving St Louis and will be on the road to Oshkosh
on Thursday July 15th. Please RSVP before that if you can it would be really helpful
in determining how much to prepare. We are nearing one 15 gallon pot of Jambalaya.
If you want plenty of return trips to the serving line, sign up,
get your canard friends to sign up too and we'll plan on a second pot.

So far we have about 120 RSVP's, keep them coming. Thank you to those who follow
instructions for RSVP format, to the rest of you, please do not build airplanes.

I drove up to Oshkosh the night before Camp Scholler opening day to make certain we'd have
the usual site for the dinner, mission accomplished! It is beautiful up there.

Cozy Girrrls 2nd Annual Early Birds Jambalaya Jam
            (a CG / CSA / RAFE group event for Canard Enthusiasts )
============================================================
 
If you are coming to Airventure 2021 Ohkosh and are going to be there early in the
week (Tuesday) and hoping to connect with other canardians, this is the place to be!
 
WHAT's FOR DINNER:
Jambalaya is a Cajun/Creole dish, it is made in a huge cast iron kettle, it is
mildly to somewhat spicy-NOT HOT... unless I turn my back on Bob Tilley and he spikes it.
Contains chicken, pork, sausage, veg and rice.
A side of creamy coleslaw comes with it.
Pro Tip: Jambalaya goes really well with ice cold beer.
  
LOCATION:
We will be at our campsite on North Doolittle providing we get our usual spot
otherwise we will put out the word via grapevine where we will be located,
as always look for the little red truck. Pictures of truck and map at bottom.
 
WHEN:
Tuesday July 27th, social hour begins around 5 PM BYOB-EER & chair.
 
$10 "donation" per person, hopefully food prices have not doubled, we'll know when we get there.
PLEASE bring a chair this year!
 
RSVP:
...as always, this is a test, based on previous years RSVP responses we have determined 70%
of you either drink a lot when you do your email or your skills at following the
simplest of written instructions are questionable, ...even if they come with "M" drawings.
We wish to thank the remaining 30% for making our lives easier.
So, if you are thinking of coming to the dinner, DO NOT HIT THE REPLY BUTTON!
Instead, please send us an email with a one line response:
 
Please do it like this:
 
email to: CozyGirrrl@...
Subject: RSVP
Body of text: # of people, name(s), email, cell
 
EXAMPLE of text: 2, Chrissi, Randi, CozyGirrrl@..., 867-5309
 
That way there will be enough food and beverage, you wouldn't want to run out would you?
There is a threshold where we may need to make a 2nd pot, so real numbers are important.
 
IMPORTANT:
1. If you RSVP, please make sure you do receive a "Thank You!" email from us within 48 hours.
2. Assume picnic tables are not available so bring a chair if you are able to scrounge one.
We will try to bring tables and any local people who bring some will be really appreciated!
3. No vehicles, there is absolutely no parking available, you must park in the very near by
BLUE lot and walk.
Towards the end of the day it is free, park up as close as you can get to the corner by the
Fly In Theater there is a walk through, very convenient.
4. Bicycles, golf carts, strollers etc must be off the road and not on our neighbors campsites.
5. We do not know of anyone who will be donating alcohol so feel free to BYOB or pass a
hat and we will make sure there is a run to Walmart for ICE COLD BEER.
There will be coolers full of ice.
6. =No animals!= ,we LOVE animals, just not when & where we are preparing and serving food.
7. If you RSVP in the 10 days before Airventure you will probably not receive an
acknowledgement from us we're either on the road or already there and EAA WiFi is spotty.
8. Count on mosquitoes! Spray yourself.
 
You will need your chair and maybe a blanket for the movie next door,The Fly In Theater at the end of the street will feature the classic movie "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo"
Count on mosquitoes! Spray yourself.
.... or stick around and socialize!
 
Our trusty band of well trained and highly skilled volunteers look forward to seeing you all there!
The Little Red Truck for those who were looking for a red mini-pickup:
 
Osh6.jpg

 This is an approximate location for where we try to be each year:
kamp_kozy.bmp




Re: New Cowl - Subaru OUT Std CZ IV IN

Roch LaRocca
 


Re: Help. I need a prop

Doug Kan
 

You can find replica wood props on line for 150-200 dollars

Doug Kanczuzewski

On Jul 9, 2021, at 3:00 PM, Walter Gee via groups.io <n85kw@...> wrote:

Hello, Im looking for a propeller. It doesn't have to be airworthy, just an old 2 blade wood prop off of a canard. I told my cousin I would help her find one for her father. He is 91 years old, a former private pilot who still drives and lives by himself. He would like to have one to hang over the fireplace mantle. If you have an old prop I have cash or would trade. I have some serviceable and airworthy parts I have taken off my Long Eze for upgrades for the last 30 years, like a SkyTec starter, Whelen strobe system (not LED) Brock nose gear parts, etc.

Thanks for reading
Walter Gee
N85KW
n85kw@...
317 503 3911





Help. I need a prop

Walter Gee
 

Hello, Im looking for a propeller. It doesn't have to be airworthy, just an old 2 blade wood prop off of a canard. I told my cousin I would help her find one for her father. He is 91 years old, a former private pilot who still drives and lives by himself. He would like to have one to hang over the fireplace mantle. If you have an old prop I have cash or would trade. I have some serviceable and airworthy parts I have taken off my Long Eze for upgrades for the last 30 years, like a SkyTec starter, Whelen strobe system (not LED) Brock nose gear parts, etc.

Thanks for reading
Walter Gee
N85KW
n85kw@...
317 503 3911


Re: COZY: New Cowl - Subaru OUT Std CZ IV IN

Keith Spreuer
 

Yes I thought my old cowls were light but these are half that. Plus all the extra stuff removed


On Fri, Jul 9, 2021, 11:20 AM <hnf.flyboy@...> wrote:
I bet you're going to be happy with everything.  You forgot the weight savings:)


-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Spreuer <kspreuer@...>
To: Gale McMahon <gale.mcmahon@...>; hertzler@... <hertzler@...>; Tim Iverson <dflypilot@...>; Alan Apodaca <alanapodaca@...>; Rich Schleicher <kenyarich@...>; Don Herzstein <herzstein@...>; John Bauer <johnmarbauer@...>; Charles Bretana Jr <cbretana@...>; Linda <taylor1752@...>; Cozy Builders <cozy_builders@...>; Canard Aviators <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Jul 9, 2021 11:37 am
Subject: COZY: New Cowl - Subaru OUT Std CZ IV IN

Since my Lyc O-360 is running so nice I decided to replace the cowl that had been designed for the Subaru 
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New Cowl - Subaru OUT Std CZ IV IN

Keith Spreuer
 

Since my Lyc O-360 is running so nice I decided to replace the cowl that had been designed for the Subaru 


Re: COZY: Crankcase vent routing

Vance Atkinson
 

NO...the clamp  is not welded to either pipe.  If it breaks then it can leave the plane.   The clamp  is not cinched down really tight, just moderate and the purpose of the weldment arraignment was handy to keep it from sliding back into the prop.  I checked the tightness pretty regularly and never found it loose. Best arraingment as previously mentioned is to drill the head and safety it.   Which in my case, would require welding a small tab on to one of the pipes to attache the other end of the safety wire.  Drilling the head is a better option than slipping the wire thru one of the clamps "slots" as there is not much meat left at the edges of the slots.
vance

On 7/6/2021 7:21 PM, Orr wrote:
Did you weld the clamp to both pipes too?  It seems like a broken clamp will stay in position until it fails then can get past the welded collar you added.

David Orr

On 7/6/2021 7:32 AM, vance atkinson wrote:


I used an AIRCRAFT quality worm clamp.  Intended to drill the head and use safety wire...never did it in 2800 hrs of flying, I'm great at procrastination and never had one break or come loose.

I kept the alignment of the pipes from wobbling by using the next size up pipe as a slip fit to keep everything aligned and put the worm clamp behind it as it shows in the following 3 pictures.

vance atkinson






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Re: [Canard Forum] COZY: Strong pitch trim jamming

Greg Norman
 


On Tue, Jul 6, 2021, 10:53 AM Greg Norman <gnorm76@...> wrote:
Thanks everyone for the advice. I want this plane in the air ASAP so last night I took the spring tube apart to repair and re-install it for now. I found a hard plastic washer at the end of the threaded rod that holds one of two springs in place. The washer was too tight in the tube. 
I still have glass and epoxy so on to making a Davenport leaf spring or a copy ob Bernard Siu's setup with Vance's spring. Very nice as well.

Greg Norman

On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 11:59 PM Jorgen Skovbjerg (skovbjerg@...) <mailer@...> wrote:
View/reply online
Reply to forum at forum@...
If this message contains inappropriate content, you can report the message online
All,
I dissed the Strong trim back when I built the Cozy and installed a Cessna style elevator trim system with a cable loop between the IP and the F22 bulkhead. Beyond the advantage that is can never run away or lock up because of the clutch (very simple) system, I could incorporate the servo from the Century A/P I had at the time. Now the servo works with the Trio A/P for trim.
Since this has worked so well for +20 years now, I wanted something as simple for the LongEZ project. The principle is the same only I am using a small geared motor (from Amazon, where else?) the leaf spring from the elevator torque tube attaches to any of the two cable / spring joints: This first pic is the leaf spring setup in the Cozy. Two other are the new LEZ system



SImple and compact, eh?
Jay


On Jul 5, 2021, at 17:38, Dennis & Margaret Butler (dsbutler569@...) <mailer@...> wrote:


View/reply online
Reply to forum at forum@...
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Hello Greg,
You might try making a new nut out of aluminum. That worked for me. See my article about Strong Pitch trim in CSA Newsletter last Fall (September or October, I think). 
Dennis

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Re: COZY: Crankcase vent routing

Vance Atkinson
 



I used an AIRCRAFT quality worm clamp.  Intended to drill the head and use safety wire...never did it in 2800 hrs of flying, I'm great at procrastination and never had one break or come loose.

I kept the alignment of the pipes from wobbling by using the next size up pipe as a slip fit to keep everything aligned and put the worm clamp behind it as it shows in the following 3 pictures.

vance atkinson







Re: COZY: Strong pitch trim jamming

Bulent Aliev
 

Greg,
You should chase the female part also with a tap. It is plastic and shrinks over the years. Mine needed it, and worked fine after that. 
On mine the square shaft was rusted too.
But I was glad to get rid of the Strong unit and install the Davenport fiberglass one.


On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 4:06 PM Greg Norman <gnorm76@...> wrote:
I wire brushed the threaded rod even though it doesn't need it, chased it with a thread die. Tried light oil. No joy. Best I get to keep it from racheting is dialed up to 14. Likely will not need full travel at once but the threaded rod gets hot. 
I'd remove the tube end and chace that with a tap but it looks like a pressed fit - possibly why it's tight. 
So now two issues with this thing and it hasn't left the ground. 
Alex Strong website gone, no call answer, sent an email. Is anyone still making them?

Greg Norman

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021, 12:55 AM Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:
Greg Norman wrote:

All good until I had a friend run the trim to its limit. Now it's jammed again. As advised I have not oiled it and it's clean. For pete's sake does this happen often with these? It's a pia to remove and would be real pissed if this happened in flight.

It's not often, but it can happen - as with many aftermarket stuff for the E-AB world, the design is marginal. When it works, it works reasonably well (although there's too much hysteresis in the system, but given that I've had mine in my plane for 18 years now, and it's still working, I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth). I have had it get stuck in flight once - at close to full fwd CG, I ran it into the stop and it got stuck there. A runaway in the elevator TE down (nose up) position is no emergency - it's merely annoying, and requires flying slowly to the nearest airport and maintaining some forward pressure on the stick during landing.

Now, IF you can reach the thing in flight (I sometimes can, if I loosen my shoulder harnesses) you can twist the threaded rod a bit and unstick it.

As James Redmon pointed out, sometimes cranking up the torque level will help with this issue, but not always - sometimes, with the torque set higher, it'll just get itself MORE stuck, rather than having an easier time UNsticking itself.

I'll have to try John Bauer's solution of wrapping safety wire around the last few threads so it can't jam - it seems simple enough.


Vance Atkinson wrote:
 
Yes, if it stuck in full up or down in flight you would be for an "E" coupon ride.

Full TE up (nose down) is far worse than the opposite, as it would require a lot of back pressure on the stick continually to stay in level flight, and even more to land slowly. But this would only happen in a trim runaway - there's no way that the pilot would ever COMMAND full nose down trim (in a COZY MKIV with an O-360, or even an O-540 - maybe in an O-540 Berkut). I don't know about GRT or AFS, but Garmin G3X and Dynon Skyview have trim time limits in their system to prevent full runaways.

It would be nice if any of the electric trim systems had limit switches (and some of the Davenport trim system electric actuators do) in them to ensure that they couldn't jam at the end of throw. I've thought about installing separate limit switches for my Strong system, but...

 You must have an emergency stop in your system somewhere.  I had two in my cozy
 
1. emergency disconnect in which the pilot pulls a "T" pin out (by his left knee) and that disconnects the trim system from the elevator system.

This is only necessary because (with all due respect, and we've talked about this a few times before on list as a warning) the Atkinson trim system as published in the COZY newsletters has the ability to not only increase the trim forces to very high levels, but will also jam the elevator motion so that full range of motion is not available if at one extent or the other. I've never seen that with any other electric trim system.

I've fixed this on three canards (a COZY III, Aerocanard and COZY MKIV) by installing collars on the spring cartridge so that they can only move far enough in the nose down trim direction so that full nose up elevator is still available. There's no reason to disconnect the trim system as long as it can't jam the elevator.

2. emergency electrical switch which shuts off all power to the trim system servo.

This is suboptimal because by the time you recognize what's going on (trim runaway), find the "trim power" switch that you put in a non-obvious location because you NEVER use it it's too late. The trim "time" limit methodology, whereby the trim can't run for more than <x> seconds without shutting off, is, while not perfect, better, as it will never let you get far off of the trim speed without conscious effort (multiple button pushes).

The Strong trim system has always been weak as a trim system in my opinion.

It CANNOT jam the elevator, so in that sense, it's a safe system. It has its faults - it can get gunked up and need cleaning (although I've only had to have mine serviced once in 18 years) and it has the aforementioned hysteresis that can make it a bit hard to trim at high speeds unless you've got a pulse width modulator linked to airspeed (many EFIS's have this, too) making it move more slowly. But all in all, especially for the price, it was a decent system.
 
The main problem is screw drive mechanism.  You need a more reliable screw/ball /drive motor.

Actually, the clutch is the only real issue - if that thing just wouldn't jam itself, it would be fine, if not perfect.

You should email Bernie Siu   <siu1.brn@...> who has made a really nice one.

That he has.

No trim system is perfect in our planes - they all need adjustment and tweaking for a particular aircraft - the Davenport systems certainly do, and so do the spring cartridge versions. Even the manual trim systems can need tweaking - I've had to replace trim springs on LE's to get them to trim to both fast and slow speeds, and I've had to move the neutral point of one Davenport type trim system implemented with metal spring rods in order to get the plane to be trimmable in flight.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2021                     Burnside Aerospace

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Enginegear
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Re: COZY: Strong pitch trim jamming

Greg Norman
 

I wire brushed the threaded rod even though it doesn't need it, chased it with a thread die. Tried light oil. No joy. Best I get to keep it from racheting is dialed up to 14. Likely will not need full travel at once but the threaded rod gets hot. 
I'd remove the tube end and chace that with a tap but it looks like a pressed fit - possibly why it's tight. 
So now two issues with this thing and it hasn't left the ground. 
Alex Strong website gone, no call answer, sent an email. Is anyone still making them?

Greg Norman

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021, 12:55 AM Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:
Greg Norman wrote:

All good until I had a friend run the trim to its limit. Now it's jammed again. As advised I have not oiled it and it's clean. For pete's sake does this happen often with these? It's a pia to remove and would be real pissed if this happened in flight.

It's not often, but it can happen - as with many aftermarket stuff for the E-AB world, the design is marginal. When it works, it works reasonably well (although there's too much hysteresis in the system, but given that I've had mine in my plane for 18 years now, and it's still working, I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth). I have had it get stuck in flight once - at close to full fwd CG, I ran it into the stop and it got stuck there. A runaway in the elevator TE down (nose up) position is no emergency - it's merely annoying, and requires flying slowly to the nearest airport and maintaining some forward pressure on the stick during landing.

Now, IF you can reach the thing in flight (I sometimes can, if I loosen my shoulder harnesses) you can twist the threaded rod a bit and unstick it.

As James Redmon pointed out, sometimes cranking up the torque level will help with this issue, but not always - sometimes, with the torque set higher, it'll just get itself MORE stuck, rather than having an easier time UNsticking itself.

I'll have to try John Bauer's solution of wrapping safety wire around the last few threads so it can't jam - it seems simple enough.


Vance Atkinson wrote:
 
Yes, if it stuck in full up or down in flight you would be for an "E" coupon ride.

Full TE up (nose down) is far worse than the opposite, as it would require a lot of back pressure on the stick continually to stay in level flight, and even more to land slowly. But this would only happen in a trim runaway - there's no way that the pilot would ever COMMAND full nose down trim (in a COZY MKIV with an O-360, or even an O-540 - maybe in an O-540 Berkut). I don't know about GRT or AFS, but Garmin G3X and Dynon Skyview have trim time limits in their system to prevent full runaways.

It would be nice if any of the electric trim systems had limit switches (and some of the Davenport trim system electric actuators do) in them to ensure that they couldn't jam at the end of throw. I've thought about installing separate limit switches for my Strong system, but...

 You must have an emergency stop in your system somewhere.  I had two in my cozy
 
1. emergency disconnect in which the pilot pulls a "T" pin out (by his left knee) and that disconnects the trim system from the elevator system.

This is only necessary because (with all due respect, and we've talked about this a few times before on list as a warning) the Atkinson trim system as published in the COZY newsletters has the ability to not only increase the trim forces to very high levels, but will also jam the elevator motion so that full range of motion is not available if at one extent or the other. I've never seen that with any other electric trim system.

I've fixed this on three canards (a COZY III, Aerocanard and COZY MKIV) by installing collars on the spring cartridge so that they can only move far enough in the nose down trim direction so that full nose up elevator is still available. There's no reason to disconnect the trim system as long as it can't jam the elevator.

2. emergency electrical switch which shuts off all power to the trim system servo.

This is suboptimal because by the time you recognize what's going on (trim runaway), find the "trim power" switch that you put in a non-obvious location because you NEVER use it it's too late. The trim "time" limit methodology, whereby the trim can't run for more than <x> seconds without shutting off, is, while not perfect, better, as it will never let you get far off of the trim speed without conscious effort (multiple button pushes).

The Strong trim system has always been weak as a trim system in my opinion.

It CANNOT jam the elevator, so in that sense, it's a safe system. It has its faults - it can get gunked up and need cleaning (although I've only had to have mine serviced once in 18 years) and it has the aforementioned hysteresis that can make it a bit hard to trim at high speeds unless you've got a pulse width modulator linked to airspeed (many EFIS's have this, too) making it move more slowly. But all in all, especially for the price, it was a decent system.
 
The main problem is screw drive mechanism.  You need a more reliable screw/ball /drive motor.

Actually, the clutch is the only real issue - if that thing just wouldn't jam itself, it would be fine, if not perfect.

You should email Bernie Siu   <siu1.brn@...> who has made a really nice one.

That he has.

No trim system is perfect in our planes - they all need adjustment and tweaking for a particular aircraft - the Davenport systems certainly do, and so do the spring cartridge versions. Even the manual trim systems can need tweaking - I've had to replace trim springs on LE's to get them to trim to both fast and slow speeds, and I've had to move the neutral point of one Davenport type trim system implemented with metal spring rods in order to get the plane to be trimmable in flight.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2021                     Burnside Aerospace


Re: COZY: Strong pitch trim jamming

Marc J. Zeitlin
 

Greg Norman wrote:

All good until I had a friend run the trim to its limit. Now it's jammed again. As advised I have not oiled it and it's clean. For pete's sake does this happen often with these? It's a pia to remove and would be real pissed if this happened in flight.

It's not often, but it can happen - as with many aftermarket stuff for the E-AB world, the design is marginal. When it works, it works reasonably well (although there's too much hysteresis in the system, but given that I've had mine in my plane for 18 years now, and it's still working, I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth). I have had it get stuck in flight once - at close to full fwd CG, I ran it into the stop and it got stuck there. A runaway in the elevator TE down (nose up) position is no emergency - it's merely annoying, and requires flying slowly to the nearest airport and maintaining some forward pressure on the stick during landing.

Now, IF you can reach the thing in flight (I sometimes can, if I loosen my shoulder harnesses) you can twist the threaded rod a bit and unstick it.

As James Redmon pointed out, sometimes cranking up the torque level will help with this issue, but not always - sometimes, with the torque set higher, it'll just get itself MORE stuck, rather than having an easier time UNsticking itself.

I'll have to try John Bauer's solution of wrapping safety wire around the last few threads so it can't jam - it seems simple enough.


Vance Atkinson wrote:
 
Yes, if it stuck in full up or down in flight you would be for an "E" coupon ride.

Full TE up (nose down) is far worse than the opposite, as it would require a lot of back pressure on the stick continually to stay in level flight, and even more to land slowly. But this would only happen in a trim runaway - there's no way that the pilot would ever COMMAND full nose down trim (in a COZY MKIV with an O-360, or even an O-540 - maybe in an O-540 Berkut). I don't know about GRT or AFS, but Garmin G3X and Dynon Skyview have trim time limits in their system to prevent full runaways.

It would be nice if any of the electric trim systems had limit switches (and some of the Davenport trim system electric actuators do) in them to ensure that they couldn't jam at the end of throw. I've thought about installing separate limit switches for my Strong system, but...

 You must have an emergency stop in your system somewhere.  I had two in my cozy
 
1. emergency disconnect in which the pilot pulls a "T" pin out (by his left knee) and that disconnects the trim system from the elevator system.

This is only necessary because (with all due respect, and we've talked about this a few times before on list as a warning) the Atkinson trim system as published in the COZY newsletters has the ability to not only increase the trim forces to very high levels, but will also jam the elevator motion so that full range of motion is not available if at one extent or the other. I've never seen that with any other electric trim system.

I've fixed this on three canards (a COZY III, Aerocanard and COZY MKIV) by installing collars on the spring cartridge so that they can only move far enough in the nose down trim direction so that full nose up elevator is still available. There's no reason to disconnect the trim system as long as it can't jam the elevator.

2. emergency electrical switch which shuts off all power to the trim system servo.

This is suboptimal because by the time you recognize what's going on (trim runaway), find the "trim power" switch that you put in a non-obvious location because you NEVER use it it's too late. The trim "time" limit methodology, whereby the trim can't run for more than <x> seconds without shutting off, is, while not perfect, better, as it will never let you get far off of the trim speed without conscious effort (multiple button pushes).

The Strong trim system has always been weak as a trim system in my opinion.

It CANNOT jam the elevator, so in that sense, it's a safe system. It has its faults - it can get gunked up and need cleaning (although I've only had to have mine serviced once in 18 years) and it has the aforementioned hysteresis that can make it a bit hard to trim at high speeds unless you've got a pulse width modulator linked to airspeed (many EFIS's have this, too) making it move more slowly. But all in all, especially for the price, it was a decent system.
 
The main problem is screw drive mechanism.  You need a more reliable screw/ball /drive motor.

Actually, the clutch is the only real issue - if that thing just wouldn't jam itself, it would be fine, if not perfect.

You should email Bernie Siu   <siu1.brn@...> who has made a really nice one.

That he has.

No trim system is perfect in our planes - they all need adjustment and tweaking for a particular aircraft - the Davenport systems certainly do, and so do the spring cartridge versions. Even the manual trim systems can need tweaking - I've had to replace trim springs on LE's to get them to trim to both fast and slow speeds, and I've had to move the neutral point of one Davenport type trim system implemented with metal spring rods in order to get the plane to be trimmable in flight.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2021                     Burnside Aerospace


Strong pitch trim jamming

Greg Norman
 

Last year my Strong pitch trim wouldn't move forward or reverse. Just shook in attempt. Thanks to the advise of this group and for sitting ten years in a build I removed it, cleaned the threaded rod and reset the motor for higher torque. All good until I had a friend run the trim to its limit. Now it's jammed again. As advised I have not oiled it and it's clean.
For pete's sake does this happen often with these? It's a pia to remove and would be real pissed if this happened in flight. 

Greg Norman


Re: Canard Calendar - July 2021

nosedragger48154
 

Nice picture Tom!

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike Scovel

SE Michigan

VariEze

 

Mbl     (313) 608-7202

Email   ezdriver@...

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io> On Behalf Of Thomas W. Carey
Sent: Thursday, July 1, 2021 5:19 PM
To: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io; 'COZY Builders' <cozy_builders@...>
Subject: [c-a] Canard Calendar - July 2021

 

All,

 

I have managed to learn a bit more about the software Erlend used to create the calendar.  For this month, I used another of my own photos.  That said, if you have any photos for consideration for upcoming months, please send then directly to me at tcarey47@....

 

Thanks,

Tom


Re: Canard Calendar - July 2021

Izzy
 

Nice one! That looks like Mike M's LongEze.


Izzy
(603)410-7277


On Thursday, July 1, 2021, 05:19:26 PM EDT, Thomas W. Carey <tcarey47@...> wrote:


All,

 

I have managed to learn a bit more about the software Erlend used to create the calendar.  For this month, I used another of my own photos.  That said, if you have any photos for consideration for upcoming months, please send then directly to me at tcarey47@....

 

Thanks,

Tom


Re: Canard Calendar - July 2021

Phil Kriley
 

Very nice!
Phil Kriley
N93CF

On Jul 1, 2021, at 5:18 PM, Thomas W. Carey <tcarey47@...> wrote:

All,

 

I have managed to learn a bit more about the software Erlend used to create the calendar.  For this month, I used another of my own photos.  That said, if you have any photos for consideration for upcoming months, please send then directly to me at tcarey47@....

 

Thanks,

Tom

<July 2021 Canard Calendar v2.jpg>


Canard Calendar - July 2021

Thomas W. Carey
 

All,

 

I have managed to learn a bit more about the software Erlend used to create the calendar.  For this month, I used another of my own photos.  That said, if you have any photos for consideration for upcoming months, please send then directly to me at tcarey47@....

 

Thanks,

Tom


CSA/COBA Newsletter Index Update

Marc J. Zeitlin
 

Folks:

Thanks to Mike Beasley, I've posted the latest version of the CSA/COBA newsletter index here:


Happy searching.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2021                     Burnside Aerospace

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