Date   

Re: Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

Lynn Canatella <lcanatella@...>
 

These are excellent comments Patrick! When I began this discussion (see below) on July 29th, it was with the intent that EAA made a mis-step, which they still had time to correct. I thought that the more people that let them know so, the higher the motivation would be to correct it by doing it in the next couple of days.
It was not to give them the finger and tell them were out of here. EAA performs a service to all of us no matter what we fly, in terms of being at the fore-front when threatening rules/regulations/laws/actions/cuts are in play.
This continues to get worse on both sides. The July 2010 board minutes indicate that one of only three qualifications for a new president was "the ability to communicate". Not only has Mr. Hightower not communicated to this group on this subject, but apparently even Patrick can't find his email address, as only his bio is in the attached link. EAA is too small for him to be this hard to "find" electronically!
And you all do have the right to communicate with wallets, but isn't it more fun to see if you can effect change by participating? When you think about it our thoughts on where we end up being parked sometimes (in the grass and mud with fragile wheel pants that sit 3" off the ground); how much we are featured, or included in activities, etc. all have a lot to do with the fact that we don't have an active presence representing canards in general. Whereas Warbirds have their own publication, and enough of them interact with EAA to have calm discussions about what they need, or would like to see. And the obviously do things that help EAA put on a good show. So it's more of a group give and take that we don't really have.
I think EAA AirVenture is all the things everyone has written, fun, stressful, expensive, multi-faceted but not enough so, commercial-but that's why we have better bathrooms..... we could go on and on.
I personally took offense by Adam's email stating basically that the time they took to respond allowed us to "put our spin" on things. That was not something I expected to see from a communicator! and it was cut and pasted to more then one person so it was a form letter by the time the second person got it. Pilot's and those that work with and around them are used to having to make quick decisions; they made one when they cancelled the fly by. They should have made another one to respond in a better manner rather then let everyone be angry for days.
But, I digress, I just had to get that out. The main point I want to make is I think we need to be in their face, politely, saying we want more skin in this adventure that is both EAA and EAA AirVenture. And keep pushing until we see it.






 on 7/29/11 I wrote:
"I wonder what the reason was? [in response to Steve Beert's email below] (I'm not there but my husband and his Reserve Grand Champion Xtra EZ were, and ready to fly).  They should have made EXTREME effort to stick to what they promoted to everyone  since the day after the show ended last year; they could have planned practice flights if training/safety was an issue.  EAA has just really strayed from the HOMEBUILT focus at AirVenture,  this is an example of that to me. We know we don't produce the dollars, but the the builders and flyers of these airplanes are both the beginning the heart of EAA.
  
You can't go to an air show and not see noisy warbirds- just not that unusual. (And I love warbirds, so I'm not against them.) But it would have truly been an unusual sight for most of the attendees to have seen a flight of canards, and would have meant a lot to everyone who has been thinking about it for a year and seriously wanted to show Burt what he was the impetus of.  We can all do our thing at chapter events, and many are more oriented one way or another just based on what members happen to fly,  but in the end the big celebration (AirVenture) should be well balanced.

It doesn't seem like this change of plans was handled well but AirVenture is not over! (The rest of the schedule is quite commercial oriented, loaded with guess what, warbirds and commercially produced airplanes.) There is still time to execute a fly over if they really  wanted to. 

At any rate, please -everyone let Mr. Hightower know of your concern/s if you agree. He's on a mission, and he's very focused, and I suspect he will listen.  After searching for 20 minutes I could not find his email address, but if you use convention@... I'm sure they will get it to him. If we are specific and not nasty it will be a more productive exchange. 

Lynn Canatella
Xtra EZ N541SL
And EZ N2424SK


On Jul 28, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Steve Beert wrote:

Let's try this again! New At this I phone stuff! It was great seeing all the canards at Oshkosh. So many great planes there for Burts day. Just like the old days. What a disappointment when they canceled the Rutan fly by! Thanks to all the guys and gals who pushed there airplanes out there and attended there mandatory briefing to fly there canards for us! What a disappointment when they canceled the fly by on Burts day that they advertised for year! EAA missed on this one! They should of canceled the L39 and noisy t6s that fly every day! They did fly the boomerang and starship but dumped the rest! Its was great to see them fly the two planes. Many angry EAAers! They are going to hear about this BS!

Steve Beert"

On Aug 9, 2011, at 4:43 PM, Pat Panzera wrote:

 

Guys,

This is the wrong attitude.

A little over a week ago, standing outside the Chris Heintz dinner located in a tent adjacent to the Nature Center, Paul Poberezny said to a small group of us. "Look around... all this is yours." He then went on to tell us the history of the grounds and why they are kept the way they are.

We can't bring change to OUR group by bailing out. We also can't do it by butting heads with those in charge, who are there by our doing*. You have more say that you might think.
*when was the last time you voted, or otherwise campaigned, for (or against) the election of a board member? Remember, they work for us. 

And if you think you'll be better represented by AOPA, you're fooling yourself. For GA, maybe, but for EAB, no way. 

Maybe these guys need to hear from you?  Maybe you need to be on the HB council yourself?  http://www.eaa.org/homebuilders/prOGrams/council_charter.asp
There are some seats available.

There is also a board of directors who might be interested in hearing from you, not to mention the new President/CEO. http://www.eaa.org/media/rod_hightower.pdf   He considers himself a homebuilder, having restored a Stearman. 

A few years ago the EAA created (and filled) a new, full-time position for someone strong in homebuilding. The person who was promoted into that position recently quit, leaving a void to fill. Maybe consider filling it? http://www.eaa.org/careers/homebuilt.asp

If you are for change, then don't quit. Maybe even consider becoming a lifetime member. If you aren't a member then change that now. You don't have a voice if you are not a member.

And don't begrudge the attention paid to the Zenith and Sonex builders or RV assemblers, they're on your side; they are builders of experimental, amateur-built aircraft too, many of whom feel the same way you do.

Recently I was at a meeting of EAA publications. There was one a-hole (thankfully not on staff and one who wouldn't know an EZ from an RV) who was literally promoting the removal of the word Experimental from our groups name. Don't let him win.


Pat


 

On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 12:54 PM, S. Ramirez <simon@...> wrote:


Ryszard,

Thanks for writing this rant.  I wholeheartedly agree with you, and my response like others is to vote with my pocketbook.  I can think of better ways to spend my money.  Hopefully, the HAA will become a reality, and we'll start this cycle all over again.

Simon Ramirez
Oviedo, FL  USA


On 8/9/2011 10:35 AM, Ryszard wrote:
 

Dear Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

I'm finding hard to have any sympathy for EAA's plight over this situation. All of the criticism you're receiving I personally believe you deserve. It seems you’re rather oblivious to the fact that all this criticism isn't the result of the single incident that occurred on what was supposed to be "Burt Rutan Day". This is a culmination of decades of people being treated indifferently by an organization that's built its success on those very people. Mr. Smith, it’s obvious that you aren't grasping the nature of this when you make statements like: "now being analyzed for deep political meaning on the internet forums, etc.", and; "reinforce a feeling that EAA doesn’t care about homebuilts”.  It might behoove you to research the Canard Aviators forum archives. You'll find disillusionment with EAA has been growing at a rate very similar to the growth of the EAA’s net worth.  That same disillusionment has been expressed to EAA over the same time period, but the obvious result proved last week is no one was listening. 








Re: Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

Ryszard Zadow
 

Wrong attitude? Are you sure you're looking at the right people when you point that finger? Have you not heard the discontent in the ranks or are you not listening like EAA? Have you not paid attention to their indifference?
 
<"Look around... all this is yours." >
 
Actions speak louder than words. There’s a HISTORY of ACTIONS that speak much louder than those words.
 
 
Who are we supposed to butt heads with? Are you suggesting we kissing their A**es instead? Maybe that’s how warbird guys have done it.
 
 
Do you wonder why?
 
 
What? Give more money to an organization that ISN’T LISTENING!
 
 
Even as members, we don’t have a voice NOW? What’s the difference?
 
 
THEY  JUST   DID!
 
I know for fact after 1995, and 2005 there were letters and e-mails written. We’ve been trying to get them to listen for over TWO DECADES! I think you’re being naïve to think something is going to change, especially for us. Rutan is done. He’s had his day. There will be no more “Tributes” to Burt that we will have a chance to participate in at OSH. Like I said, they missed it by a moon-shot and that’s it. The END. We’re done, bring in the RV”s.
 
Ryszard
 
 
 
 
 

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 4:43 PM
Subject: Fwd: [c-a] Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith
 
 

Guys,
 
This is the wrong attitude.
 
A little over a week ago, standing outside the Chris Heintz dinner located in a tent adjacent to the Nature Center, Paul Poberezny said to a small group of us. Wrong He then went on to tell us the history of the grounds and why they are kept the way they are.
 
We can't bring change to OUR group by bailing out. We also can't do it by butting heads with those in charge, who are there by our doing*. You have more say that you might think.
*when was the last time you voted, or otherwise campaigned, for (or against) the election of a board member? Remember, they work for us.
 
And if you think you'll be better represented by AOPA, you're fooling yourself. For GA, maybe, but for EAB, no way.
 
Maybe these guys need to hear from you?  Maybe you need to be on the HB council yourself?  http://www.eaa.org/homebuilders/prOGrams/council_charter.asp
There are some seats available.
 
There is also a board of directors who might be interested in hearing from you, not to mention the new President/CEO. http://www.eaa.org/media/rod_hightower.pdf   He considers himself a homebuilder, having restored a Stearman.
 
A few years ago the EAA created (and filled) a new, full-time position for someone strong in homebuilding. The person who was promoted into that position recently quit, leaving a void to fill. Maybe consider filling it? http://www.eaa.org/careers/homebuilt.asp
 
If you are for change, then don't quit. Maybe even consider becoming a lifetime member. If you aren't a member then change that now. You don't have a voice if you are not a member.
 
And don't begrudge the attention paid to the Zenith and Sonex builders or RV assemblers, they're on your side; they are builders of experimental, amateur-built aircraft too, many of whom feel the same way you do.
 
Recently I was at a meeting of EAA publications. There was one a-hole (thankfully not on staff and one who wouldn't know an EZ from an RV) who was literally promoting the removal of the word Experimental from our groups name. Don't let him win.
 
 
Pat
 
 


On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 12:54 PM, S. Ramirez <simon@...> wrote:


Ryszard,

Thanks for writing this rant.  I wholeheartedly agree with you, and my response like others is to vote with my pocketbook.  I can think of better ways to spend my money.  Hopefully, the HAA will become a reality, and we'll start this cycle all over again.

Simon Ramirez
Oviedo, FL  USA


On 8/9/2011 10:35 AM, Ryszard wrote:
 
Dear Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

I'm finding hard to have any sympathy for EAA's plight over this situation. All of the criticism you're receiving I personally believe you deserve. It seems you’re rather oblivious to the fact that all this criticism isn't the result of the single incident that occurred on what was supposed to be "Burt Rutan Day". This is a culmination of decades of people being treated indifferently by an organization that's built its success on those very people. Mr. Smith, it’s obvious that you aren't grasping the nature of this when you make statements like: "now being analyzed for deep political meaning on the internet forums, etc.", and; "reinforce a feeling that EAA doesn’t care about homebuilts”.  It might behoove you to research the Canard Aviators forum archives. You'll find disillusionment with EAA has been growing at a rate very similar to the growth of the EAA’s net worth.  That same disillusionment has been expressed to EAA over the same time period, but the obvious result proved last week is no one was listening. 



 


Re: Experimental Scratchbuilt Aviation & Pilots association

cozygirrrl
 

I don't like scratchy... sounds like it was built from junk parts
 
Chrissi & Randi
www.CozyGirrrl.com
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
Chairwomen, Sun-N-Fun Engine Workshop
 

In a message dated 8/9/2011 6:14:33 P.M. Central Daylight Time, dapslp@... writes:
 

Except.
Hope its the ESAP.
Experimental Scratchbuilt Aviation Pilots association...
The Vans guys won't be interested probably. Just the scratch builders. "Homebuilt" sounds so dang hokey to me.
Plenty of guys start in a garage but the last 50% is built somewhere else like a hangar.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


From: "S. Ramirez"
Sender: canard-aviators@...
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 15:54:07 -0400
Cc: Canard-Aviators Email List
Subject: Re: [c-a] Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

 

Ryszard,

Thanks for writing this rant.  I wholeheartedly agree with you, and my response like others is to vote with my pocketbook.  I can think of better ways to spend my money.  Hopefully, the HAA will become a reality, and we'll start this cycle all over again.

Simon Ramirez
Oviedo, FL  USA


On 8/9/2011 10:35 AM, Ryszard wrote:

 

Dear Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

I'm finding hard to have any sympathy for EAA's plight over this situation. All of the criticism you're receiving I personally believe you deserve. It seems you’re rather oblivious to the fact that all this criticism isn't the result of the single incident that occurred on what was supposed to be "Burt Rutan Day". This is a culmination of decades of people being treated indifferently by an organization that's built its success on those very people. Mr. Smith, it’s obvious that you aren't grasping the nature of this when you make statements like: "now being analyzed for deep political meaning on the internet forums, etc.", and; "reinforce a feeling that EAA doesn’t care about homebuilts”.  It might behoove you to research the Canard Aviators forum archives. You'll find disillusionment with EAA has been growing at a rate very similar to the growth of the EAA’s net worth.  That same disillusionment has been expressed to EAA over the same time period, but the obvious result proved last week is no one was listening. 


Re: Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny,Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith [text][html][heur][bcc][faked-from][mx]

Ryszard Zadow
 

I did get a cordial reponse from Dick Knapinski. The other two, not so much. (nor would I expect one.. )

Ryszard

-----Original Message-----
From: David Froble
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:16 PM
To: Canard Aviators
Subject: Re: [c-a] Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny,Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith [text][html][heur][bcc][faked-from][mx]

Jim Evans wrote:


Well said, Ryszard. It will be interesting to hear their response.
Don't kid yourself. There will either be no response, or some damage control. Nothing
you can ever take to the bank, that's for sure.

When any entity is relatively consistent in their activities, then unless you're a very
easy mark, you should be able to anticipate their future actions. Ryszard was rather
accurate, long term, and I for one do not expect to see any changes.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@...
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Rutan Flyover

Bulent Aliev
 

They use $1000 bills under the skin:)


On Aug 9, 2011, at 9:29 PM, mulqueen@... wrote:

 

So what do they use on the B2?
They certainly don't use something that increases radar detection.

JackVeze






Lightning protection. 
 
               The marketing team at Raytheon along with their omnipotent lawyers killed the airplane. 
 
               Burt designed a 400 KT dart that had long legs and a purty figger.  The marketing department turned her into a  slug with short legs and lots of vortex generators.  You see, marketing wanted an all-weather aircraft before weeping wing technology existed so they had to add boots to the wings and canard.  This detached flow, so they had to add vortex generators everywhere. 
 
               They also wanted flaps.  This precipitated the mechanical linkages to sweep the canard forward during landing to keep the center of lift where it needs to be.
 
               When they were through, the airplane had gained a ton of weight limiting it’s payload and range, and slowing it by 100 (!) knots..  The Piaggio P180 that was designed to be it’s competition all of a sudden was a much better choice.  Since Raytheon is not a state owned multinational, it could not continue to sell and support a loser.   
 
Direct from the horse’s mouth, Burt Rutan hissef.
 
Ken

From: canard-aviators@... [mailto:canard-aviators@...] On Behalf Of mulqueen@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 9:25 AM
To: bulent.enginegear@...; canard-aviators@...
Subject: Re: [c-a] Rutan Flyover [html][heur][bcc][faked-from][mx]
 
 
And why was there aluminum mesh in the carbon?
 
Jack
Veze
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Bulent Aliev <bulent.enginegear@...>
To: davef <davef@...>
Cc: canard Aviators <canard-aviators@...>
Sent: Tue, Aug 9, 2011 6:53 am
Subject: Re: [c-a] Rutan Flyover [html][heur][bcc][faked-from][mx]
 
Friend of mine used to work at Raytheon service facility. They did the repairs and maintenance on the starships.
Remember him talking that the aluminum mesh imbedded in the carbon fiber was a constant corrosion problem. Difficult and expensive repair.
Bulent "Buly" Aliev
Cozy Mk-IV  N484BD
KPMP Pompano Beach,
Florida          USA

http://tinyurl.com/2dl88bz



 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 10:44 PM, David Froble <davef@...> wrote:
S. Ramirez wrote:
>
>
> Ric or anyone,
>
> How does Robert S. keep the Starships going?  Surely they need
> serviceable parts, and with the fleet gone, seems like Beech or Raytheon
> wouldn't have any in stock.  I've often wondered how someone keeps such
> a magnificent bird in the air serviced properly.

Ok, this is just a guess.  Could be wrong.

I understood that Beech's reason for buying back all the StarShips was so they didn't have
to support them.  Perhaps by refusing to sell, Robert has forced Beech to continue support
for his aircraft.  Remember, just a wild ass guess.

It's very possible that there isn't much in the aircraft that cannot be repaired, and that
appropriately licensed people might be able to fabricate anything needed.

I'd guess that Beech sourced many of the parts, and that possibly many of those parts were
not unique to the StarShip.  The original mfgs might be able to supply needed parts.

Maybe he's just REAL careful.

--
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@...
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA  15486


------------------------------------

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RoughRiver

Webcave
 

Any body that has reservations for the lodge or a cabin that can't make it or changes their mind drop me an email I am looking for lodging.

Jack
Veze


Re: Rutan Flyover

Webcave
 

So what do they use on the B2?
They certainly don't use something that increases radar detection.

JackVeze





Lightning protection. 
 
               The marketing team at Raytheon along with their omnipotent lawyers killed the airplane. 
 
               Burt designed a 400 KT dart that had long legs and a purty figger.  The marketing department turned her into a  slug with short legs and lots of vortex generators.  You see, marketing wanted an all-weather aircraft before weeping wing technology existed so they had to add boots to the wings and canard.  This detached flow, so they had to add vortex generators everywhere. 
 
               They also wanted flaps.  This precipitated the mechanical linkages to sweep the canard forward during landing to keep the center of lift where it needs to be.
 
               When they were through, the airplane had gained a ton of weight limiting it’s payload and range, and slowing it by 100 (!) knots..  The Piaggio P180 that was designed to be it’s competition all of a sudden was a much better choice.  Since Raytheon is not a state owned multinational, it could not continue to sell and support a loser.   
 
Direct from the horse’s mouth, Burt Rutan hissef.
 
Ken

From: canard-aviators@... [mailto:canard-aviators@...] On Behalf Of mulqueen@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 9:25 AM
To: bulent.enginegear@...; canard-aviators@...
Subject: Re: [c-a] Rutan Flyover [html][heur][bcc][faked-from][mx]
 
 
And why was there aluminum mesh in the carbon?
 
Jack
Veze
 
-----Original Message-----

From: Bulent Aliev <bulent.enginegear@...>
To: davef <davef@...>
Cc: canard Aviators <canard-aviators@...>
Sent: Tue, Aug 9, 2011 6:53 am
Subject: Re: [c-a] Rutan Flyover [html][heur][bcc][faked-from][mx]
 
Friend of mine used to work at Raytheon service facility. They did the repairs and maintenance on the starships.
Remember him talking that the aluminum mesh imbedded in the carbon fiber was a constant corrosion problem. Difficult and expensive repair.
Bulent "Buly" Aliev
Cozy Mk-IV  N484BD
KPMP Pompano Beach,
Florida          USA

http://tinyurl.com/2dl88bz



 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 10:44 PM, David Froble <davef@...> wrote:
S. Ramirez wrote:
>
>
> Ric or anyone,
>
> How does Robert S. keep the Starships going?  Surely they need
> serviceable parts, and with the fleet gone, seems like Beech or Raytheon
> wouldn't have any in stock.  I've often wondered how someone keeps such
> a magnificent bird in the air serviced properly.

Ok, this is just a guess.  Could be wrong.

I understood that Beech's reason for buying back all the StarShips was so they didn't have
to support them.  Perhaps by refusing to sell, Robert has forced Beech to continue support
for his aircraft.  Remember, just a wild ass guess.

It's very possible that there isn't much in the aircraft that cannot be repaired, and that
appropriately licensed people might be able to fabricate anything needed.

I'd guess that Beech sourced many of the parts, and that possibly many of those parts were
not unique to the StarShip.  The original mfgs might be able to supply needed parts.

Maybe he's just REAL careful.

--
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@...
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA  15486


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<*> To change settings via email:
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Re: Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny,Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith [text][html][heur][bcc][faked-from][mx]

Dennis Passey
 

I'm not getting it. Where did you register any disdain for the Warburds faction in this copy? It appears you are just showcasing your article.
????

Dennis

Website- www.vipercozy540.weebly.com
N513DP
ViperCozy 540
Carmel Valley,CA


--- On Tue, 8/9/11, Jack wrote:

From: Jack
Subject: Re: [c-a] Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny,Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith [text][html][heur][bcc][faked-from][mx]
To: canard-aviators@...
Date: Tuesday, August 9, 2011, 4:54 PM

 

Hi gang:
I write a column for our monthly EAA79 Chapter newsletter. This month's contribution kind of fits with the current complaining about warbirds. I have pasted it in below. I write to entertain....enjoy.

Jack Hohner
LongEZ
EAA Chapter 79
Spokane, WA....ps, if interested in complete newsletter with pictures, go to EAA79.org

THE OSHKOSH EXPERIENCE
I reckon every culture, (or more accurately in our case... "cult,") has its "Mecca." In other words, a place where all the fanatics of a common interest meet at one central location to completely indulge and gorge themselves on their particular passion. While the motorcycle guys meet in Sturgis, and the Quilting Moms of America meet wherever….none of them even come close to what the annual EAA convention creates. Every year they put on an event that exceeds the 1969 historically famous Woodstock rock festival. Attendance is always over a half million which is more than Woodstock. In addition, about ten thousand airplanes fly-in. Woodstock only had a few helicopters flying in the rock stars who couldn't get through the traffic jam.
About five thousand volunteers insure that the event comes off flawlessly. While Woodstock was short on Honey Buckets….that is never an issue at Oshkosh. And the grounds are so well kept, it rivals Disneyland for presentation.
I am certain that when EAA founder, Paul Poberezny, gathered a handful of rogue amateur aircraft builders in his basement in Hales Corner, Wisconson in the mid 1950's, he never envisioned the juggernaut that would evolve from his modest effort. A ride in the 1929 Ford Tri-motor gave us a birds eye view of the length and breadth of the event. It is enormous! Actually, it is beyond enormous...it is humungous!
So what is it about this airplane, Oshkosh thing? My theory is that it is primarily a "guy" thing. That is not to say that aviation does not have its share of accomplished women pilots and aircraft builders...a pink RV with flowers was proof of that...but the testosterone at this thing goes into the massive overdose proportions.
You've got your ultralight area with your docile little birds, with delicate gossamer wings, and tiny chainsaw motors coaxing pilots into the air. And surely these guys spend their non-flying hours at some "green environment rally" and drive a Toyota Prius hybrid. And while the attendance at the ultralight area is respectable, it is easy to see where the real action is.
As if by design, the WARBIRD area is at the opposite end of the field. Here you will find your rough and rugged aviator wannabes. Often they are wearing their oil stained, worn flight jacket even if its 85 degrees out. The heavy metal birds line the concrete ramp. They have to be on the concrete, if they were on grass like the ultralights they would probably sink up to their wheel pants. One Corsair or P-38 probably weighs as much as a hundred ultralights. And while the little guys measure their horsepower in single or double digits...these guys are into the thousands of hp on each engine. But its not just the size, power and weight...they also have way cool guns and bombs. And the sound...my gawd, the sound! Our patriotic (and rich) warbird owners and pilots dominated the fly-by scene. You get a slug of those WWII fighters flying down the flight line with the engines roaring and you could probably hear a chorus of "Tim, the toolman Taylor" grunts if it wasn't for the fact they are drowned out. And to top it off, the airshow guys light off a "wall of fire" pyrotechnic display that with a little imagination, you could pretend you were smelling napalm in the morning. Its over the top.
If the group of warbirds on the north end of the field wasn't enough, the last surviving B-29 "FiFi" was center stage at the Conoco square. Now we are talking real fire power here. This bird could carry atom bombs!
The power, speed, smell, sound, guns is all great. But what if you combine all of that into a fighter jet that can hover? At Friday's airshow, a Harrier wowed the crowd. Someone said it was privately owned. Now that is my idea of the wealthy letting it trickle down. At thirty gallons a minute when it is hovering...that is a hefty trickle. When this jet hovers at center field, with engines roaring so loud it is almost deafening, it looks like something out of science fiction. While regular jet fighters shoot their guns while making a strafing pass, you could imagine this guy just rotating on a massive column of hot air as he blew away anything he wanted. After he shut down his engines, you could almost hear the faint buzz of an ultralight at the south end.
If warbirds aren't your thing, (you certainly aren't a real man) but you can find nearly an infinite number of homebuilts, antiques, classics, canards...whatever kind of airplane that turns you on. This Mecca is definitely worth the trek.






--- In canard-aviators@..., Elwood Johnson wrote:
>
> Again I say, Like all org. EAA is not ruled by the majority but by the majority that are involved.
> Volunteer now!!!!!!!!
>
> EJ Johnson
>
>
> On Aug 9, 2011, at 11:12 AM, David Froble wrote:
>
> > This is not an easy issue. I normally feel that if you condone activity that you don't
> > like, then you are facilitating it's continuation. I also feel that while not exactly in
> > line with my own personal goals, EAA does work at advocating aviation. So on any
> > particular day, I could come down on either side of the issue. Not black and white.
> >
> > I do not currently have an EAA membership, and as a small time vendor of aviation
> > hardware, I don't feel EAA has much to offer me. Nor can I rule out ever being a
> > exhibitor at Oshkosh and/or Sun-N-Fun in the future. About all I can say.
> >
> > --
> > David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
> > Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@...
> > DFE Ultralights, Inc.
> > 170 Grimplin Road
> > Vanderbilt, PA 15486
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>


Re: Rutan Flyover

Ken <kenezmiller@...>
 

Lightning protection. 

 

               The marketing team at Raytheon along with their omnipotent lawyers killed the airplane. 

 

               Burt designed a 400 KT dart that had long legs and a purty figger.  The marketing department turned her into a  slug with short legs and lots of vortex generators.  You see, marketing wanted an all-weather aircraft before weeping wing technology existed so they had to add boots to the wings and canard.  This detached flow, so they had to add vortex generators everywhere. 

 

               They also wanted flaps.  This precipitated the mechanical linkages to sweep the canard forward during landing to keep the center of lift where it needs to be.

 

               When they were through, the airplane had gained a ton of weight limiting it’s payload and range, and slowing it by 100 (!) knots..  The Piaggio P180 that was designed to be it’s competition all of a sudden was a much better choice.  Since Raytheon is not a state owned multinational, it could not continue to sell and support a loser.   

 

Direct from the horse’s mouth, Burt Rutan hissef.

 

Ken


From: canard-aviators@... [mailto:canard-aviators@...] On Behalf Of mulqueen@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 9:25 AM
To: bulent.enginegear@...; canard-aviators@...
Subject: Re: [c-a] Rutan Flyover [html][heur][bcc][faked-from][mx]

 

 

And why was there aluminum mesh in the carbon?

 

Jack
Veze

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Bulent Aliev
To: davef
Cc: canard Aviators
Sent: Tue, Aug 9, 2011 6:53 am
Subject: Re: [c-a] Rutan Flyover [html][heur][bcc][faked-from][mx]

 

Friend of mine used to work at Raytheon service facility. They did the repairs and maintenance on the starships.

Remember him talking that the aluminum mesh imbedded in the carbon fiber was a constant corrosion problem. Difficult and expensive repair.

Bulent "Buly" Aliev
Cozy Mk-IV  N484BD
KPMP Pompano Beach,
Florida          USA

http://tinyurl.com/2dl88bz



 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 10:44 PM, David Froble <davef@...> wrote:

S. Ramirez wrote:
>
>
> Ric or anyone,
>
> How does Robert S. keep the Starships going?  Surely they need
> serviceable parts, and with the fleet gone, seems like Beech or Raytheon
> wouldn't have any in stock.  I've often wondered how someone keeps such
> a magnificent bird in the air serviced properly.

Ok, this is just a guess.  Could be wrong.

I understood that Beech's reason for buying back all the StarShips was so they didn't have
to support them.  Perhaps by refusing to sell, Robert has forced Beech to continue support
for his aircraft.  Remember, just a wild ass guess.

It's very possible that there isn't much in the aircraft that cannot be repaired, and that
appropriately licensed people might be able to fabricate anything needed.

I'd guess that Beech sourced many of the parts, and that possibly many of those parts were
not unique to the StarShip.  The original mfgs might be able to supply needed parts.

Maybe he's just REAL careful.

--
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@...
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA  15486


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Re: Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny,Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith [text][html][heur][bcc][faked-from][mx]

jack hohner
 

Hi gang:
I write a column for our monthly EAA79 Chapter newsletter. This month's contribution kind of fits with the current complaining about warbirds. I have pasted it in below. I write to entertain....enjoy.

Jack Hohner
LongEZ
EAA Chapter 79
Spokane, WA....ps, if interested in complete newsletter with pictures, go to EAA79.org



THE OSHKOSH EXPERIENCE
I reckon every culture, (or more accurately in our case... "cult,") has its "Mecca." In other words, a place where all the fanatics of a common interest meet at one central location to completely indulge and gorge themselves on their particular passion. While the motorcycle guys meet in Sturgis, and the Quilting Moms of America meet wherever….none of them even come close to what the annual EAA convention creates. Every year they put on an event that exceeds the 1969 historically famous Woodstock rock festival. Attendance is always over a half million which is more than Woodstock. In addition, about ten thousand airplanes fly-in. Woodstock only had a few helicopters flying in the rock stars who couldn't get through the traffic jam.
About five thousand volunteers insure that the event comes off flawlessly. While Woodstock was short on Honey Buckets….that is never an issue at Oshkosh. And the grounds are so well kept, it rivals Disneyland for presentation.
I am certain that when EAA founder, Paul Poberezny, gathered a handful of rogue amateur aircraft builders in his basement in Hales Corner, Wisconson in the mid 1950's, he never envisioned the juggernaut that would evolve from his modest effort. A ride in the 1929 Ford Tri-motor gave us a birds eye view of the length and breadth of the event. It is enormous! Actually, it is beyond enormous...it is humungous!
So what is it about this airplane, Oshkosh thing? My theory is that it is primarily a "guy" thing. That is not to say that aviation does not have its share of accomplished women pilots and aircraft builders...a pink RV with flowers was proof of that...but the testosterone at this thing goes into the massive overdose proportions.
You've got your ultralight area with your docile little birds, with delicate gossamer wings, and tiny chainsaw motors coaxing pilots into the air. And surely these guys spend their non-flying hours at some "green environment rally" and drive a Toyota Prius hybrid. And while the attendance at the ultralight area is respectable, it is easy to see where the real action is.
As if by design, the WARBIRD area is at the opposite end of the field. Here you will find your rough and rugged aviator wannabes. Often they are wearing their oil stained, worn flight jacket even if its 85 degrees out. The heavy metal birds line the concrete ramp. They have to be on the concrete, if they were on grass like the ultralights they would probably sink up to their wheel pants. One Corsair or P-38 probably weighs as much as a hundred ultralights. And while the little guys measure their horsepower in single or double digits...these guys are into the thousands of hp on each engine. But its not just the size, power and weight...they also have way cool guns and bombs. And the sound...my gawd, the sound! Our patriotic (and rich) warbird owners and pilots dominated the fly-by scene. You get a slug of those WWII fighters flying down the flight line with the engines roaring and you could probably hear a chorus of "Tim, the toolman Taylor" grunts if it wasn't for the fact they are drowned out. And to top it off, the airshow guys light off a "wall of fire" pyrotechnic display that with a little imagination, you could pretend you were smelling napalm in the morning. Its over the top.
If the group of warbirds on the north end of the field wasn't enough, the last surviving B-29 "FiFi" was center stage at the Conoco square. Now we are talking real fire power here. This bird could carry atom bombs!
The power, speed, smell, sound, guns is all great. But what if you combine all of that into a fighter jet that can hover? At Friday's airshow, a Harrier wowed the crowd. Someone said it was privately owned. Now that is my idea of the wealthy letting it trickle down. At thirty gallons a minute when it is hovering...that is a hefty trickle. When this jet hovers at center field, with engines roaring so loud it is almost deafening, it looks like something out of science fiction. While regular jet fighters shoot their guns while making a strafing pass, you could imagine this guy just rotating on a massive column of hot air as he blew away anything he wanted. After he shut down his engines, you could almost hear the faint buzz of an ultralight at the south end.
If warbirds aren't your thing, (you certainly aren't a real man) but you can find nearly an infinite number of homebuilts, antiques, classics, canards...whatever kind of airplane that turns you on. This Mecca is definitely worth the trek.

--- In canard-aviators@..., Elwood Johnson <ejandlinda@...> wrote:

Again I say, Like all org. EAA is not ruled by the majority but by the majority that are involved.
Volunteer now!!!!!!!!

EJ Johnson
Sent from my iPad

On Aug 9, 2011, at 11:12 AM, David Froble <davef@...> wrote:

This is not an easy issue. I normally feel that if you condone activity that you don't
like, then you are facilitating it's continuation. I also feel that while not exactly in
line with my own personal goals, EAA does work at advocating aviation. So on any
particular day, I could come down on either side of the issue. Not black and white.

I do not currently have an EAA membership, and as a small time vendor of aviation
hardware, I don't feel EAA has much to offer me. Nor can I rule out ever being a
exhibitor at Oshkosh and/or Sun-N-Fun in the future. About all I can say.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@...
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny,Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith [text][html][heur][bcc][faked-from][mx]

Elwood Johnson
 

Again I say, Like all org. EAA is not ruled by the majority but by the majority that are involved.
Volunteer now!!!!!!!!

EJ Johnson

On Aug 9, 2011, at 11:12 AM, David Froble <davef@...> wrote:

This is not an easy issue. I normally feel that if you condone activity that you don't
like, then you are facilitating it's continuation. I also feel that while not exactly in
line with my own personal goals, EAA does work at advocating aviation. So on any
particular day, I could come down on either side of the issue. Not black and white.

I do not currently have an EAA membership, and as a small time vendor of aviation
hardware, I don't feel EAA has much to offer me. Nor can I rule out ever being a
exhibitor at Oshkosh and/or Sun-N-Fun in the future. About all I can say.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@...
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

xaplax102
 

Holy cow, I finally agree with Ryszard on something…….that means something

Great letter dude

 

Ted Davis

President
Tel: 831-637-1100
Fax: 831-637-2355


From: canard-aviators@... [mailto:canard-aviators@...] On Behalf Of upperglass

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 11:36 AM
To: Ryszard; Bulent Aliev
Cc: communications@...; dknapinski@...; Canard Aviators
Subject: Re: [c-a] Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

 

 

I also agree. I have been to Air Venture many times but not since I went by a stand selling "billy bob" teeth.

--- On Tue, 8/9/11, Bulent Aliev wrote:


From: Bulent Aliev
Subject: Re: [c-a] Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith
To: "Ryszard"
Cc: communications@..., dknapinski@..., "Canard Aviators"
Date: Tuesday, August 9, 2011, 11:46 AM

 

I fully agree with you Ryszard. That was my first and will be the last pilgrimage to OSH. Also considering if I should renew my EAA membership? Smaller canard events (RR and Bahamas fly-in) are in my future flying calendar. 

I'm sure the EAA will not miss me, unless my other plane was a P-51.

Buly

Bulent "Buly" Aliev
Cozy Mk-IV  N484BD
KPMP Pompano Beach,
Florida          USA

http://tinyurl.com/2dl88bz



On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Ryszard <ryszardzadow@...> wrote:

 

Dear Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

I'm finding hard to have any sympathy for EAA's plight over this situation. All of the criticism you're receiving I personally believe you deserve. It seems you’re rather oblivious to the fact that all this criticism isn't the result of the single incident that occurred on what was supposed to be "Burt Rutan Day". This is a culmination of decades of people being treated indifferently by an organization that's built its success on those very people. Mr. Smith, it’s obvious that you aren't grasping the nature of this when you make statements like: "now being analyzed for deep political meaning on the internet forums, etc.", and; "reinforce a feeling that EAA doesn’t care about homebuilts”.  It might behoove you to research the Canard Aviators forum archives. You'll find disillusionment with EAA has been growing at a rate very similar to the growth of the EAA’s net worth.  That same disillusionment has been expressed to EAA over the same time period, but the obvious result proved last week is no one was listening.

Blame this on the Air Force? Having flown fighters in the Navy, I have a background in dealing with the anal-nature of the Air Force. I'm not at all surprised by their arrogance to think the actions of their idiot pilot gave them the right to shut down the greatest air-show in the world. That's so typical of the Air Force. Unfortunately, it’s also very typical, based on past performance, for EAA to immediately give preference to something "other than homebuilts" but more specific, "other than Rutan aircraft".

I don't know how long you've been with EAA but do you remember the Glass Overcast fly-by in 1995? That was a celebration of 20 years of the Rutan Eze. Only after tremendous effort by dedicated individuals did that dream become reality, but its story is strikingly familiar to this one. The organizer, Norm Howell, tells the story of how all his initial contacts with EAA about his idea to put up a mass fly-by of Rutan aircraft were met with "No". Only his persistence and the hard work of Eze people all over the country allowed it to eventually prevail. EAA considered us “unqualified” for such a fly-by, and in order to prove our worth Norm had to set up regional training camps. We trained in formation flying and practiced for a YEAR prior, with still no guarantee it would be allowed.  (Note 1.) After all that and like this year, people flew their Eze's from all ends of the country and when we got there the word was we were going to get cancelled. Each day leading up to flight was filled with angst as Norm would report we were cancelled, then reinstated only to later be told we were cancelled again. It ran literally up to minutes before we needed to push our aircraft out to fly when Norm got the final word we were a go! (Note 2) It was obvious EAA was trying every reason they could to cancel us. That's a true story and I personally believe it enlightened us to the true nature of how EAA regards different groups of participants.

Unfortunately, it doesn't end there. I and many of us again returned in 2005 for the 30th year anniversary of the Ez. The event was organized by Frank Pullano and his attempts to recreate the Glass Overcast fly-by was met with"No" so many times he gave up and settled for a mass arrival. Even that was met with constant threats of cancellations again right down to the last minute. By then many type groups had started doing mass arrivals and I’ve witnessed several of those. I'm sure you’re aware that as these mass arrivals occur, there is usually a lot of chatter on the public address about the types of aircraft arriving; they number of them arriving, their history, performance, ect. I think you’ll agree the PA at OSH is seldom silent. I was about number four to land. As I shut down in my parking spot, an old Eze friend ran up and said hello, then said "Listen". I wasn't sure what he meant and he said it again "Listen.." I realized he was referring to the silence. The never silent OSH PA was silent! All the while Eze’s were arriving, not a word was said. I don't think anyone in the crowd even understood a mass arrival was occurring.

Please consider these two examples as they reflect upon people’s reactions to the cancellation of the Tribute Fly-by on “Burt Rutan Day”.  EAA may have a short term memory, but our “group” and most your membership, do not.

You're trying to rationalize this by saying "some safety concern about launching the planned activity into what had become a high stress operational environment." For who? Are you saying it’s “less safe” for us homebuilders to fly but it’s ok to launch a 4-plane L-39 formation team into a low overcast that prevents them from doing their normal high show and limits them to right echelon, left echelon, trail, whatever- else- boring -noisy -fly-bys? After that it was “safer” to launch the 4-plane T-6 team to do what they do and what we see them do nearly every day at Osh?  That was a "safety" decision? Those warbird teams fly, if not every day, every YEAR at OSH! It’s obvious no one considered that the Tribute to Rutan Fly-by was a once in a lifetime event, but it was “safer” to let the warbird acts that are seen almost every day at OSH to go on? I can just hear someone shouting  “The SHOW MUST GO ON!!!”

The warbirds fly every day, every year. You recognized Burt Rutan by giving him ONE day.

The warbirds fly every day, every year. Some people flew all the way from each coast to participate in one thing, the Tribute fly-by.

The warbirds fly every day, every year. For some people, it was a once in a lifetime chance to fly before the crowds ay OSH. (Note 3.)

The warbirds fly every day, every year. Some people, (like me!) worked for months to get their aircraft ready so they could be in the Tribute fly-by!

The warbirds fly every day, every year:  You cancel a “Tribute” fly-by because you think the warbirds draw the crowds that return year after year.. but now you have lifelong EAA members vowing never to return.

WAY TO GO EAA!!!

Consider what Burt Rutan has accomplished and how EAA has ridden the coat-tails of his success, yet it seems at every turn, snubbed his followers.

Consider what Burt Rutan has accomplished, yet you give him one “Day” of tribute while also giving Chris Heintz one “Day”. I’m sure you find that somehow equitable but by your admission more effort was put into Chris Heintz day and it was considered more of a success! (Note 4)

Mr. Smith, I appreciate you taking the time to write us an explanation. You've justified EAA's actions but you did not apologize. I believe it’s because you're totally unaware of the reality that's out there outside the world of EAA's offices.  If you can't see what this looks like, allow me to tell you: Thursday morning was one more example of EAA pushing Rutan people/aircraft to the back of the bus and deferring to the warbirds and showbirds. That is, as I’ve explained above, supported by a history of similar actions.

There won’t be another chance for EAA to “cash in” on Burt Rutans retirement and the possible publicity and good will EAA could’ve extended to the people who supported Burt, built his designs and flew them to OSH year after year after year just so that the general public can have seat to watch the airshow while sitting on our canards! (Note 5). EAA missed that by a moon shot and all that is in the past, so I’d like to make a prediction for the future.  When Richard VanGrunsven retires or for whatever reason EAA decides to hold a tribute to him, there will be a GALA EVENT like never before seen at Airventure and probably never to be seen again. Consider what Van has accomplished as opposed to Burt.. what the heck, make it,  RV WEEK!

Sincerely,

Ryszard Zadow

 

cc: U.S. Mail

 

Note 1: Participation in the formation training camps was mandatory to be considered for the OSH fly-by. Though many of the participants were former military pilots and others with tremendous formation flying experience, no credit was given for that. I’d bet there are less qualified people flying in the mass warbird formations at OSH all the time.

Note 2: The Glass Overcast had no precedent, however since then the RV group and others have performed mass formation fly-by’s at OSH repeatedly and our group, the ones who set the foundation, has never been invited, or allowed since.

Note 3: One thing I and many people loved about OSH years gone by was the morning fly-by pattern. It was always filled with true homebuilts and it allowed us “little people” the chance to at least feel like we got to fly before the OSH crowd. You obviously have no idea what that means to people.

Note 4: “…the tribute to Chris Heintz on Monday seemed to go flawlessly, including the flying component …”.  We organized Heintz in a different way, with a more robust advance plan…”.

 “We recognize that neither of these factors were in place for the Rutan flying…”

Note 5: When EAA decided to allow the general public to stroll the flight line, all aircraft parked there got put at risk. I have literally walked up to my Varieze and had people watching the airshow while sitting on my canard. If you’re not familiar that’s the front WING of my plane. Why not let them climb up on the P-51’s too?

 


Re: Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

Chuck Busch
 


I was among the EZ's that took part in the 1995 glass overcast, also my first time to OSH. 
 
I camped for three days and was surprised at the fees I was charged for the camping.  I was part of the "homebuilder community" and kind of expected some kind of recognition for flying all the way across the country to put my plane on display. Didn't happen.
 
Then I watched the crowds descend on the airplanes - not "plane" people, but folks that would set their kids on the front of the canopy for a "smile" picture.  A little frustrating, but what the heck, it's OSH!.  I just stuck around the plane during the day to keep watch.
 
I wondered around the grounds and saw all them warbirds...and more warbirds.and all the big bucks stuff oriented to the commercialization of the EAA.  EAA was not homebuilding as it started out, it was big bucks commercialization with homebuilding a small fraction of the event.
 
After 3 days I left and upon return to homeplate promptly cancelled my EAA membership.  I realized in 1995 that the EAA was not about homebuilts, far, far from it.  Homebuilts were an aside and I truly felt deflated by that first trip after having been in the EAA since 1978.
 
I'm not bitter or critical about EAA. Maybe a little disappointed in their homebuilders facade, but not bitter.  They have evolved from grassroots homebuilding into a large commercial enterprise.  I think this is a natural progression if your goal is to grow and expand in a capitalist environment. 
 
The HAA idea has merit, but if it gains traction now, I'd place bets that 20 or 30 years down the road it is either dead, or just like EAA is today.
 
Chuck
LE N143CL
1982 0-320 2300 hrs
 
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Ryszard
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 7:35 AM
Subject: [c-a] Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

 

Dear Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

I'm finding hard to have any sympathy for EAA's plight over this situation. All of the criticism you're receiving I personally believe you deserve. It seems you’re rather oblivious to the fact that all this criticism isn't the result of the single incident that occurred on what was supposed to be "Burt Rutan Day". This is a culmination of decades of people being treated indifferently by an organization that's built its success on those very people. Mr. Smith, it’s obvious that you aren't grasping the nature of this when you make statements like: "now being analyzed for deep political meaning on the internet forums, etc.", and; "reinforce a feeling that EAA doesn’t care about homebuilts”.  It might behoove you to research the Canard Aviators forum archives. You'll find disillusionment with EAA has been growing at a rate very similar to the growth of the EAA’s net worth.  That same disillusionment has been expressed to EAA over the same time period, but the obvious result proved last week is no one was listening.

Blame this on the Air Force? Having flown fighters in the Navy, I have a background in dealing with the anal-nature of the Air Force. I'm not at all surprised by their arrogance to think the actions of their idiot pilot gave them the right to shut down the greatest air-show in the world. That's so typical of the Air Force. Unfortunately, it’s also very typical, based on past performance, for EAA to immediately give preference to something "other than homebuilts" but more specific, "other than Rutan aircraft".

I don't know how long you've been with EAA but do you remember the Glass Overcast fly-by in 1995? That was a celebration of 20 years of the Rutan Eze. Only after tremendous effort by dedicated individuals did that dream become reality, but its story is strikingly familiar to this one. The organizer, Norm Howell, tells the story of how all his initial contacts with EAA about his idea to put up a mass fly-by of Rutan aircraft were met with "No". Only his persistence and the hard work of Eze people all over the country allowed it to eventually prevail. EAA considered us “unqualified” for such a fly-by, and in order to prove our worth Norm had to set up regional training camps. We trained in formation flying and practiced for a YEAR prior, with still no guarantee it would be allowed.  (Note 1.) After all that and like this year, people flew their Eze's from all ends of the country and when we got there the word was we were going to get cancelled. Each day leading up to flight was filled with angst as Norm would report we were cancelled, then reinstated only to later be told we were cancelled again. It ran literally up to minutes before we needed to push our aircraft out to fly when Norm got the final word we were a go! (Note 2) It was obvious EAA was trying every reason they could to cancel us. That's a true story and I personally believe it enlightened us to the true nature of how EAA regards different groups of participants.

Unfortunately, it doesn't end there. I and many of us again returned in 2005 for the 30th year anniversary of the Ez. The event was organized by Frank Pullano and his attempts to recreate the Glass Overcast fly-by was met with"No" so many times he gave up and settled for a mass arrival. Even that was met with constant threats of cancellations again right down to the last minute. By then many type groups had started doing mass arrivals and I’ve witnessed several of those. I'm sure you’re aware that as these mass arrivals occur, there is usually a lot of chatter on the public address about the types of aircraft arriving; they number of them arriving, their history, performance, ect. I think you’ll agree the PA at OSH is seldom silent. I was about number four to land. As I shut down in my parking spot, an old Eze friend ran up and said hello, then said "Listen". I wasn't sure what he meant and he said it again "Listen.." I realized he was referring to the silence. The never silent OSH PA was silent! All the while Eze’s were arriving, not a word was said. I don't think anyone in the crowd even understood a mass arrival was occurring.

Please consider these two examples as they reflect upon people’s reactions to the cancellation of the Tribute Fly-by on “Burt Rutan Day”.  EAA may have a short term memory, but our “group” and most your membership, do not.

You're trying to rationalize this by saying "some safety concern about launching the planned activity into what had become a high stress operational environment." For who? Are you saying it’s “less safe” for us homebuilders to fly but it’s ok to launch a 4-plane L-39 formation team into a low overcast that prevents them from doing their normal high show and limits them to right echelon, left echelon, trail, whatever- else- boring -noisy -fly-bys? After that it was “safer” to launch the 4-plane T-6 team to do what they do and what we see them do nearly every day at Osh?  That was a "safety" decision? Those warbird teams fly, if not every day, every YEAR at OSH! It’s obvious no one considered that the Tribute to Rutan Fly-by was a once in a lifetime event, but it was “safer” to let the warbird acts that are seen almost every day at OSH to go on? I can just hear someone shouting  “The SHOW MUST GO ON!!!”

The warbirds fly every day, every year. You recognized Burt Rutan by giving him ONE day.

The warbirds fly every day, every year. Some people flew all the way from each coast to participate in one thing, the Tribute fly-by.

The warbirds fly every day, every year. For some people, it was a once in a lifetime chance to fly before the crowds ay OSH. (Note 3.)

The warbirds fly every day, every year. Some people, (like me!) worked for months to get their aircraft ready so they could be in the Tribute fly-by!

The warbirds fly every day, every year:  You cancel a “Tribute” fly-by because you think the warbirds draw the crowds that return year after year.. but now you have lifelong EAA members vowing never to return.

WAY TO GO EAA!!!

Consider what Burt Rutan has accomplished and how EAA has ridden the coat-tails of his success, yet it seems at every turn, snubbed his followers.

Consider what Burt Rutan has accomplished, yet you give him one “Day” of tribute while also giving Chris Heintz one “Day”. I’m sure you find that somehow equitable but by your admission more effort was put into Chris Heintz day and it was considered more of a success! (Note 4)

Mr. Smith, I appreciate you taking the time to write us an explanation. You've justified EAA's actions but you did not apologize. I believe it’s because you're totally unaware of the reality that's out there outside the world of EAA's offices.  If you can't see what this looks like, allow me to tell you: Thursday morning was one more example of EAA pushing Rutan people/aircraft to the back of the bus and deferring to the warbirds and showbirds. That is, as I’ve explained above, supported by a history of similar actions.

There won’t be another chance for EAA to “cash in” on Burt Rutans retirement and the possible publicity and good will EAA could’ve extended to the people who supported Burt, built his designs and flew them to OSH year after year after year just so that the general public can have seat to watch the airshow while sitting on our canards! (Note 5). EAA missed that by a moon shot and all that is in the past, so I’d like to make a prediction for the future.  When Richard VanGrunsven retires or for whatever reason EAA decides to hold a tribute to him, there will be a GALA EVENT like never before seen at Airventure and probably never to be seen again. Consider what Van has accomplished as opposed to Burt.. what the heck, make it,  RV WEEK!

Sincerely,

Ryszard Zadow

 

cc: U.S. Mail

Note 1: Participation in the formation training camps was mandatory to be considered for the OSH fly-by. Though many of the participants were former military pilots and others with tremendous formation flying experience, no credit was given for that. I’d bet there are less qualified people flying in the mass warbird formations at OSH all the time.

Note 2: The Glass Overcast had no precedent, however since then the RV group and others have performed mass formation fly-by’s at OSH repeatedly and our group, the ones who set the foundation, has never been invited, or allowed since.

Note 3: One thing I and many people loved about OSH years gone by was the morning fly-by pattern. It was always filled with true homebuilts and it allowed us “little people” the chance to at least feel like we got to fly before the OSH crowd. You obviously have no idea what that means to people.

Note 4: “…the tribute to Chris Heintz on Monday seemed to go flawlessly, including the flying component …”.  We organized Heintz in a different way, with a more robust advance plan…”.

 “We recognize that neither of these factors were in place for the Rutan flying…”

Note 5: When EAA decided to allow the general public to stroll the flight line, all aircraft parked there got put at risk. I have literally walked up to my Varieze and had people watching the airshow while sitting on my canard. If you’re not familiar that’s the front WING of my plane. Why not let them climb up on the P-51’s too?


Re: Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

Bill Allen
 

Well said Chuck. Thoughtful, philosophical and reasonable.

There are a couple of immutable Laws which drive this.

1. You can only make more money from folk that have more money.

2. People and organisations follow the money.


Bill Allen
LE160 N99BA FD51
CZ4 G-BYLZ EGBJ



On 9 August 2011 23:49, Chuck Busch <ezflyr82@...> wrote:
 



I was among the EZ's that took part in the 1995 glass overcast, also my first time to OSH. 
 
I camped for three days and was surprised at the fees I was charged for the camping.  I was part of the "homebuilder community" and kind of expected some kind of recognition for flying all the way across the country to put my plane on display. Didn't happen.
 
Then I watched the crowds descend on the airplanes - not "plane" people, but folks that would set their kids on the front of the canopy for a "smile" picture.  A little frustrating, but what the heck, it's OSH!.  I just stuck around the plane during the day to keep watch.
 
I wondered around the grounds and saw all them warbirds...and more warbirds.and all the big bucks stuff oriented to the commercialization of the EAA.  EAA was not homebuilding as it started out, it was big bucks commercialization with homebuilding a small fraction of the event.
 
After 3 days I left and upon return to homeplate promptly cancelled my EAA membership.  I realized in 1995 that the EAA was not about homebuilts, far, far from it.  Homebuilts were an aside and I truly felt deflated by that first trip after having been in the EAA since 1978.
 
I'm not bitter or critical about EAA. Maybe a little disappointed in their homebuilders facade, but not bitter.  They have evolved from grassroots homebuilding into a large commercial enterprise.  I think this is a natural progression if your goal is to grow and expand in a capitalist environment. 
 
The HAA idea has merit, but if it gains traction now, I'd place bets that 20 or 30 years down the road it is either dead, or just like EAA is today.
 
Chuck
LE N143CL
1982 0-320 2300 hrs
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Ryszard
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 7:35 AM
Subject: [c-a] Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

 

Dear Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

I'm finding hard to have any sympathy for EAA's plight over this situation. All of the criticism you're receiving I personally believe you deserve. It seems you’re rather oblivious to the fact that all this criticism isn't the result of the single incident that occurred on what was supposed to be "Burt Rutan Day". This is a culmination of decades of people being treated indifferently by an organization that's built its success on those very people. Mr. Smith, it’s obvious that you aren't grasping the nature of this when you make statements like: "now being analyzed for deep political meaning on the internet forums, etc.", and; "reinforce a feeling that EAA doesn’t care about homebuilts”.  It might behoove you to research the Canard Aviators forum archives. You'll find disillusionment with EAA has been growing at a rate very similar to the growth of the EAA’s net worth.  That same disillusionment has been expressed to EAA over the same time period, but the obvious result proved last week is no one was listening.

Blame this on the Air Force? Having flown fighters in the Navy, I have a background in dealing with the anal-nature of the Air Force. I'm not at all surprised by their arrogance to think the actions of their idiot pilot gave them the right to shut down the greatest air-show in the world. That's so typical of the Air Force. Unfortunately, it’s also very typical, based on past performance, for EAA to immediately give preference to something "other than homebuilts" but more specific, "other than Rutan aircraft".

I don't know how long you've been with EAA but do you remember the Glass Overcast fly-by in 1995? That was a celebration of 20 years of the Rutan Eze. Only after tremendous effort by dedicated individuals did that dream become reality, but its story is strikingly familiar to this one. The organizer, Norm Howell, tells the story of how all his initial contacts with EAA about his idea to put up a mass fly-by of Rutan aircraft were met with "No". Only his persistence and the hard work of Eze people all over the country allowed it to eventually prevail. EAA considered us “unqualified” for such a fly-by, and in order to prove our worth Norm had to set up regional training camps. We trained in formation flying and practiced for a YEAR prior, with still no guarantee it would be allowed.  (Note 1.) After all that and like this year, people flew their Eze's from all ends of the country and when we got there the word was we were going to get cancelled. Each day leading up to flight was filled with angst as Norm would report we were cancelled, then reinstated only to later be told we were cancelled again. It ran literally up to minutes before we needed to push our aircraft out to fly when Norm got the final word we were a go! (Note 2) It was obvious EAA was trying every reason they could to cancel us. That's a true story and I personally believe it enlightened us to the true nature of how EAA regards different groups of participants.

Unfortunately, it doesn't end there. I and many of us again returned in 2005 for the 30th year anniversary of the Ez. The event was organized by Frank Pullano and his attempts to recreate the Glass Overcast fly-by was met with"No" so many times he gave up and settled for a mass arrival. Even that was met with constant threats of cancellations again right down to the last minute. By then many type groups had started doing mass arrivals and I’ve witnessed several of those. I'm sure you’re aware that as these mass arrivals occur, there is usually a lot of chatter on the public address about the types of aircraft arriving; they number of them arriving, their history, performance, ect. I think you’ll agree the PA at OSH is seldom silent. I was about number four to land. As I shut down in my parking spot, an old Eze friend ran up and said hello, then said "Listen". I wasn't sure what he meant and he said it again "Listen.." I realized he was referring to the silence. The never silent OSH PA was silent! All the while Eze’s were arriving, not a word was said. I don't think anyone in the crowd even understood a mass arrival was occurring.

Please consider these two examples as they reflect upon people’s reactions to the cancellation of the Tribute Fly-by on “Burt Rutan Day”.  EAA may have a short term memory, but our “group” and most your membership, do not.

You're trying to rationalize this by saying "some safety concern about launching the planned activity into what had become a high stress operational environment." For who? Are you saying it’s “less safe” for us homebuilders to fly but it’s ok to launch a 4-plane L-39 formation team into a low overcast that prevents them from doing their normal high show and limits them to right echelon, left echelon, trail, whatever- else- boring -noisy -fly-bys? After that it was “safer” to launch the 4-plane T-6 team to do what they do and what we see them do nearly every day at Osh?  That was a "safety" decision? Those warbird teams fly, if not every day, every YEAR at OSH! It’s obvious no one considered that the Tribute to Rutan Fly-by was a once in a lifetime event, but it was “safer” to let the warbird acts that are seen almost every day at OSH to go on? I can just hear someone shouting  “The SHOW MUST GO ON!!!”

The warbirds fly every day, every year. You recognized Burt Rutan by giving him ONE day.

The warbirds fly every day, every year. Some people flew all the way from each coast to participate in one thing, the Tribute fly-by.

The warbirds fly every day, every year. For some people, it was a once in a lifetime chance to fly before the crowds ay OSH. (Note 3.)

The warbirds fly every day, every year. Some people, (like me!) worked for months to get their aircraft ready so they could be in the Tribute fly-by!

The warbirds fly every day, every year:  You cancel a “Tribute” fly-by because you think the warbirds draw the crowds that return year after year.. but now you have lifelong EAA members vowing never to return.

WAY TO GO EAA!!!

Consider what Burt Rutan has accomplished and how EAA has ridden the coat-tails of his success, yet it seems at every turn, snubbed his followers.

Consider what Burt Rutan has accomplished, yet you give him one “Day” of tribute while also giving Chris Heintz one “Day”. I’m sure you find that somehow equitable but by your admission more effort was put into Chris Heintz day and it was considered more of a success! (Note 4)

Mr. Smith, I appreciate you taking the time to write us an explanation. You've justified EAA's actions but you did not apologize. I believe it’s because you're totally unaware of the reality that's out there outside the world of EAA's offices.  If you can't see what this looks like, allow me to tell you: Thursday morning was one more example of EAA pushing Rutan people/aircraft to the back of the bus and deferring to the warbirds and showbirds. That is, as I’ve explained above, supported by a history of similar actions.

There won’t be another chance for EAA to “cash in” on Burt Rutans retirement and the possible publicity and good will EAA could’ve extended to the people who supported Burt, built his designs and flew them to OSH year after year after year just so that the general public can have seat to watch the airshow while sitting on our canards! (Note 5). EAA missed that by a moon shot and all that is in the past, so I’d like to make a prediction for the future.  When Richard VanGrunsven retires or for whatever reason EAA decides to hold a tribute to him, there will be a GALA EVENT like never before seen at Airventure and probably never to be seen again. Consider what Van has accomplished as opposed to Burt.. what the heck, make it,  RV WEEK!

Sincerely,

Ryszard Zadow

 

cc: U.S. Mail

Note 1: Participation in the formation training camps was mandatory to be considered for the OSH fly-by. Though many of the participants were former military pilots and others with tremendous formation flying experience, no credit was given for that. I’d bet there are less qualified people flying in the mass warbird formations at OSH all the time.

Note 2: The Glass Overcast had no precedent, however since then the RV group and others have performed mass formation fly-by’s at OSH repeatedly and our group, the ones who set the foundation, has never been invited, or allowed since.

Note 3: One thing I and many people loved about OSH years gone by was the morning fly-by pattern. It was always filled with true homebuilts and it allowed us “little people” the chance to at least feel like we got to fly before the OSH crowd. You obviously have no idea what that means to people.

Note 4: “…the tribute to Chris Heintz on Monday seemed to go flawlessly, including the flying component …”.  We organized Heintz in a different way, with a more robust advance plan…”.

 “We recognize that neither of these factors were in place for the Rutan flying…”

Note 5: When EAA decided to allow the general public to stroll the flight line, all aircraft parked there got put at risk. I have literally walked up to my Varieze and had people watching the airshow while sitting on my canard. If you’re not familiar that’s the front WING of my plane. Why not let them climb up on the P-51’s too?



Re: E-Mag

Bulent Aliev
 

Correction:
Richard installed PMag. Not Emag. 
Buly


On Aug 9, 2011, at 6:38 PM, RICHARD RICHMOND <Richard.Richmond@...> wrote:

 

I flew my airplane with the newly installed E-Mag today and was pleased with the results. I have a LSE on the top and now an E-mag on the bottom. I decided to put in an E-mag because it doesn't relay solely on the airplanes electrical system for power. The most striking differences between the E-mag and Slick mag it replaced are engine smoothness and exist gas temps when running alone. This indicates, to me, that more fuel is being burnt and therefore more power and efficiency should follow. The RPM drop between the LSE and Slick mag was generally about 100 but it's only 40 with the E-mag. I'm generally very pleased with the unit and the great support from E-mag.


E-Mag

rcr7373
 

I flew my airplane with the newly installed E-Mag today and was pleased with the results. I have a LSE on the top and now an E-mag on the bottom. I decided to put in an E-mag because it doesn't relay solely on the airplanes electrical system for power. The most striking differences between the E-mag and Slick mag it replaced are engine smoothness and exist gas temps when running alone. This indicates, to me, that more fuel is being burnt and therefore more power and efficiency should follow. The RPM drop between the LSE and Slick mag was generally about 100 but it's only 40 with the E-mag. I'm generally very pleased with the unit and the great support from E-mag.


Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

Pat Panzera <panzera@...>
 

Guys,

This is the wrong attitude.

A little over a week ago, standing outside the Chris Heintz dinner located in a tent adjacent to the Nature Center, Paul Poberezny said to a small group of us. "Look around... all this is yours." He then went on to tell us the history of the grounds and why they are kept the way they are.

We can't bring change to OUR group by bailing out. We also can't do it by butting heads with those in charge, who are there by our doing*. You have more say that you might think.
*when was the last time you voted, or otherwise campaigned, for (or against) the election of a board member? Remember, they work for us. 

And if you think you'll be better represented by AOPA, you're fooling yourself. For GA, maybe, but for EAB, no way. 

Maybe these guys need to hear from you?  Maybe you need to be on the HB council yourself?  http://www.eaa.org/homebuilders/prOGrams/council_charter.asp
There are some seats available.

There is also a board of directors who might be interested in hearing from you, not to mention the new President/CEO. http://www.eaa.org/media/rod_hightower.pdf   He considers himself a homebuilder, having restored a Stearman. 

A few years ago the EAA created (and filled) a new, full-time position for someone strong in homebuilding. The person who was promoted into that position recently quit, leaving a void to fill. Maybe consider filling it? http://www.eaa.org/careers/homebuilt.asp

If you are for change, then don't quit. Maybe even consider becoming a lifetime member. If you aren't a member then change that now. You don't have a voice if you are not a member.

And don't begrudge the attention paid to the Zenith and Sonex builders or RV assemblers, they're on your side; they are builders of experimental, amateur-built aircraft too, many of whom feel the same way you do.

Recently I was at a meeting of EAA publications. There was one a-hole (thankfully not on staff and one who wouldn't know an EZ from an RV) who was literally promoting the removal of the word Experimental from our groups name. Don't let him win.


Pat


 


On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 12:54 PM, S. Ramirez <simon@...> wrote:


Ryszard,

Thanks for writing this rant.  I wholeheartedly agree with you, and my response like others is to vote with my pocketbook.  I can think of better ways to spend my money.  Hopefully, the HAA will become a reality, and we'll start this cycle all over again.

Simon Ramirez
Oviedo, FL  USA


On 8/9/2011 10:35 AM, Ryszard wrote:
 

Dear Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

I'm finding hard to have any sympathy for EAA's plight over this situation. All of the criticism you're receiving I personally believe you deserve. It seems you’re rather oblivious to the fact that all this criticism isn't the result of the single incident that occurred on what was supposed to be "Burt Rutan Day". This is a culmination of decades of people being treated indifferently by an organization that's built its success on those very people. Mr. Smith, it’s obvious that you aren't grasping the nature of this when you make statements like: "now being analyzed for deep political meaning on the internet forums, etc.", and; "reinforce a feeling that EAA doesn’t care about homebuilts”.  It might behoove you to research the Canard Aviators forum archives. You'll find disillusionment with EAA has been growing at a rate very similar to the growth of the EAA’s net worth.  That same disillusionment has been expressed to EAA over the same time period, but the obvious result proved last week is no one was listening. 






Re: should be...ÉXPO. Experimental Pilots Organization

Dennis Passey
 

Okay.
So how did "homebuilt" not sound like someone was building a home instead of an airplane? Just like some rube to coin a tinkering 1950's type moniker to something cool. Oh wait, it probably WAS coined in the 50's !
How about just; EXperimental Pilots Organization?
They're being built to fly...right? Cut to the chase about the purpose. IMHO. :)

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


From: "S. Ramirez" <simon@...>
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 16:39:13 -0400
To: <dapslp@...>
Cc: <canard-aviators@...>
Subject: Re: Experimental Scratchbuilt Aviation & Pilots association

Yeah, but "scratchbuilt" sounds like a project built with money, of which "scratch" is a colloquial synonym  Then everybody's gonna want to join, even Balloon Boy out of Fort Collins, Colorado. :)

Dennis, isn't homebuilt an FAA term, i.e. already defined?

On 8/9/2011 4:29 PM, dapslp@... wrote:
Except.
Hope its the ESAP.
Experimental Scratchbuilt Aviation & Pilots association...
The Vans guys won't be interested probably. Just the scratch builders. "Homebuilt" sounds so dang hokey to me.
Plenty of guys start in a garage but the last 50% is built somewhere else like a hangar.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


From: "S. Ramirez" <simon@...>
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 15:54:07 -0400
Cc: Canard-Aviators Email List<canard-aviators@...>
Subject: Re: [c-a] Cancellation of Rutan Trubute flyby. Attn: Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

 

Ryszard,

Thanks for writing this rant.  I wholeheartedly agree with you, and my response like others is to vote with my pocketbook.  I can think of better ways to spend my money.  Hopefully, the HAA will become a reality, and we'll start this cycle all over again.

Simon Ramirez
Oviedo, FL  USA


On 8/9/2011 10:35 AM, Ryszard wrote:

 

Dear Mr. Poberezny, Mr. Knapinski and Mr. Smith

I'm finding hard to have any sympathy for EAA's plight over this situation. All of the criticism you're receiving I personally believe you deserve. It seems you’re rather oblivious to the fact that all this criticism isn't the result of the single incident that occurred on what was supposed to be "Burt Rutan Day". This is a culmination of decades of people being treated indifferently by an organization that's built its success on those very people. Mr. Smith, it’s obvious that you aren't grasping the nature of this when you make statements like: "now being analyzed for deep political meaning on the internet forums, etc.", and; "reinforce a feeling that EAA doesn’t care about homebuilts”.  It might behoove you to research the Canard Aviators forum archives. You'll find disillusionment with EAA has been growing at a rate very similar to the growth of the EAA’s net worth.  That same disillusionment has been expressed to EAA over the same time period, but the obvious result proved last week is no one was listening. 


Re: Engine failure?

Keith Spreuer <keith@...>
 

This is why it is a good procedure to turn 30 deg off the R/W heading right after lift off. Then if the engine fails at 500' you are offset to the side and it is only a 210 deg turn back to alignment with the runway.

Keith


At 01:41 PM 8/9/2011, Jim Evans wrote:
 

In that article, he talks about standard rate turn of 2 minutes for 360 degrees, which is true.  He also talks about 500'/min. rate of decent, which at those rates theoretically you can make a 180 deg. turn losing 500'.  Standard rate of decent is 500' but usually most aircraft achieve that in straight and level.  When in a turn that will be higher.  What a lot of people fail to realize is, to get back to the runway, you need to figure on a 360 deg. turn which at 500'/min would lose 1000'.  It takes 1 minute to make the 180 deg turn but that doesn't line you up with the runway, only parallel to it and offset to one side or another.  You would have to make two more 90 turns or at best two 45's to line back up with the runway, depending on the winds.
You agree?

On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 11:08 AM, Al Wick <alwick@...> wrote:
 

 
There are some unusual characteristics of Hood River airport that come into play. Usually there is a 20 mile wind coming down that runway. Day after day. That's why that area is the wind surfing capital of the US. In addition, take a look at Google map of "Hood River Airport". Just beyond departure end you have steep ravine. No flat areas ahead. So in this case, steep turn MAY have been justified.
 
I really value failure reports, thanks Bruce for filming the interview. I know that every failure has multiple causes. This is another valuable example. Every time we land our planes we feel a sense of relief. Little bit of tension before hand, relief upon landing. This influences our decisions. Our natural tendency is to return to airport, even when that increases life risk a great deal. We lost a canard pilot a few years ago for this very situation. Engine failure on takeoff, he got away with VERY dangerous maneuver and made it back. Everyone on email list praised his piloting, when in truth he made a bad decision. 1 week later, same failure, he died from steep angle stall.
 
I KNOW my engine will fail on takeoff. So I reviewed my options at Scappoose airport. Flat fields ahead, I'll land there there when engine fails. Every time I fly I glance down at my landing area. Need to reinforce that decision to compensate for emotional tendency to return to airport. Life risk it more important than loss of gear and aircraft damage.
 
Other common failure cause to consider: design innovations have unexpected consequences...make sure I assume my innovation will fail. What will happen when it fails? He replaced 10 visible fasteners with 1 hidden fastener. Hidden fastener way more likely to fail preflight.
 
Bob's done all sorts of innovations over the years. Willing to increase risk temporarily in order to improve his plane. More than most, he's bound to occasionally make an oversight. Not to detract from all the cool stuff he's accomplished.
 
-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R.
Computer monitoring improves safety, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Pat Panzera
To: canard-aviators@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Probable Spam] [c-a] Engine failure?

Here's an article I wrote for Experimenter on this topic:
http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2011-01_editorial.asp

Pat

On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Keith Spreuer <keith@...> wrote:


Very interesting. Thought about the engine failure on takeoff a lot and thought anything less that 500 agl I'd go straight ahead. This guy did a tear drop 9more than 180) from 200agl. WOW!

Keith



At 02:45 PM 8/8/2011, Bruce Sturgill wrote:


Here are a couple of new videos everyone may find interesting... one is about a rollover structure on a LongEZ, about 2 minutes long...

http://pursuitofflight.com/longezrolloverst.html

The other, a LongEZ pilot after an engine shut down does a 180 back to the runway, about 7 minutes long...

http://pursuitofflight.com/bobh_180.html

Hopefully, in a few days I'll post the presentation that Jim Price gave at Chapter EAA292 (Independence, OR) last month, just waiting for his final approval. It's the story of his high altitude record of 35,027 feet in his LongEZ, 1 hour and 12 minutes, very interesting.


Best regards,
Bruce Sturgill

www.pursuitofflight.com






--

Jim


Re: Engine failure?

Pat Panzera <panzera@...>
 


On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:41 PM, Jim Evans <jevansez@...> wrote:


In that article, he talks about standard rate turn of 2 minutes for 360 degrees, which is true.  He also talks about 500'/min. rate of decent, which at those rates theoretically you can make a 180 deg. turn losing 500'.  Standard rate of decent is 500' but usually most aircraft achieve that in straight and level.  When in a turn that will be higher.  What a lot of people fail to realize is, to get back to the runway, you need to figure on a 360 deg. turn which at 500'/min would lose 1000'.  It takes 1 minute to make the 180 deg turn but that doesn't line you up with the runway, only parallel to it and offset to one side or another.  You would have to make two more 90 turns or at best two 45's to line back up with the runway, depending on the winds.
You agree?

No I don't.

Not every airport has them, but most do, especially the ones canard aircraft fly from.
I'm talking about parallel taxiways. In an emergency we are taught to land straight ahead. For me (at my home airport), it means crossing the freeway and then crash into the commercial buildings on the other side. 

A 180 to the left puts me on the parallel, or at least on the airport property that has lots of open area on which to land.

Each situation is individual and should be looked at seriously before departure. 

Pat

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