Date   

Re: Test

Greg Bakker <gregbakker@...>
 

Yeah, it’s a little quiet....(crickets)....

 

From: canard-aviators@... [mailto:canard-aviators@...] On Behalf Of Mike Tooze miketooze@... [canard-aviators]
Sent: Saturday, 21 May 2016 6:07 PM
To: canard aviators
Subject: [c-a] Test

 




Test

 

Rxd nothing since Wednesday

 

MT






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__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 13523 (20160520) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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Test

Mike Tooze
 

Test

Rxd nothing since Wednesday

MT


Re: Oshkosh COZY Forum

Saro Marcarian
 

> Once again, it's time to solicit ideas for COZY Forum topics at OSH.

Howzabout Instrument Panels?  New builds and retrofits...  I think an interesting presentation (plus maybe a set of plans / instructions for some coin?) could be why & how to go with aluminum (or at least something replaceable regardless of material) from the get-go.  It's almost like we're ok permanently bonding an engine to the airframe.

OR....

You keep talking about maintainability in general.  Is there some set of stuff you can discuss that folks can do during a build that aids maintainability?  How does someone know where it's ok to cut a hatch or drill structure?  Are you giving up light, simple, & cheap?  Etc.  List of acceptable, light, cheap clamps.  A one piece canard / nose cover & how-to?  Main gear access from below?  "Can we rename this thing the 'Heaven Hole'?"  Eh, maybe not that last one.

My personal favorite: how to turn staring at a pile of parts into a flying airplane.  Still can't make it happen.

-Saro


VI Demo - Oshkosh

Tom Mann <tmann@...>
 

No .... the VI does not stand for Virgin Islands.
 
There was some additional information regarding the upcoming Vacuum Infusion demo in Composites World.
 
..... for those who may be interested.
 
T Mann


Heat shielding for cowlings

David K
 

There was a great article that talked about heat shielding in cowls on AVWeb. Thought this could be useful info for everyone:


Oshkosh COZY Forum

Marc J. Zeitlin
 

Folks:

Once again, it's time to solicit ideas for COZY Forum topics at OSH. Damon Meyer tentatively will be presenting his plan for an around the world record flight in his COZY III (he's already set a cross-country record from Ontario, CA to Portland, ME) which has an over 3K NM range.

Since ACS is no longer paying for "official" COZY support, I'm happy to turn the "COZY" forum into a more general canard forum, with info about other types as well, if folks are interested.

If you have ideas for presentation topics, or if you have a topic that YOU would like to volunteer present (and can put together a 10 - 20 minute presentation with slides), I'm all ears. If I get more offers than we have time, I will arbitrarily pick the topics to present out of a metaphorical hat I have here next to my office desk.

No, I do not yet know which day or time the Forum will be on, but the smart money is on the standard time of early afternoon on Friday, July 29th. Same day as the assumed COZY dinner (which, I might suggest, could be turned into a more generic canard dinner, too).

Fire away.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2016                     Burnside Aerospace


2 or 4

Greg Norman
 

To all you nose battery guys. Cozy plans mention routing #4 wires from the battery on the firewall. Are you nose battery guys going with #2?

Greg Norman


Re: Hidden Rudder Belhorn Compression Spring

Mark Spedding - VIC Australia - Cozy IV #1331 CH13 <spodman59@...>
 

Nice Job Andrew.


On Tuesday, 17 May 2016 22:44:54 UTC+10, Andrew Anunson wrote:

The small hinges work to create bends that, while not perfect, are much better than when using the crude hand tools.






Re: COZY: Belleville Washer Stacks

Marc J. Zeitlin
 

John Toelaer wrote:

I have been running the bellevilles according to Marc's spreadsheet for 2 years now and FWIW  it is the best change I have made to the aircraft in 20 years of flying the Long.

Wow - that's saying something. On my plane, even after the prop loss that led to the investigation of bellevilles, I'd say the best modification I've made to my plane was the fuselage side windows :-). But certainly from a safety standpoint, the bellevilles are a clear win.
 
Thanks Marc!

You're quite welcome. The most heartening thing to me in the 9.5 years since my prop was induced to fly to Joshua Tree NP separately from the airplane is that both Gary Hertzler and Craig Catto, the biggest names in canard aircraft propellers (and MFG's for many other makes as well) are proponents of the belleville installation, with Craig now shipping bellevilles by default with every prop he manufactures. Craig did a lot of testing with the standard installation and is a complete convert - I thank them both for pushing this safety measure.

And if you use Craig or Gary's installations with their props, you no longer need to use my long and somewhat complex methodology or instructions - just do what Craig or Gary say for their props and you're good to go.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2016                     Burnside Aerospace


Re: COZY: Belleville Washer Stacks

johntoelaer
 

I have been running the bellevilles according to Marc's spreadsheet for 2 years now and FWIW  it is the best change I have made to the aircraft in 20 years of flying the Long.  I used to use a special tork wrench on almost every flight and now it just sits in the toolbox.  A visual  gap check on preflight and I check tightness  with the fingers just for my own confidence and it is ready to start.    Thanks Marc!
john N51975


New ADSB installation guidelines

Bulent Aliev
 


Re: COZY: Hidden Rudder Belhorn Compression Spring

Elwood Johnson
 

Great idea.


EJ Johnson N36EJ Mid. Kansas


On May 17, 2016, at 7:47 AM, Bill Allen billallensworld@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators-noreply@...> wrote:

 

What a great idea Andrew - Education and recreation !


Bill Allen

On Tuesday, 17 May 2016, 'Andrew Anunson' via COZY Builders Mailing List <cozy_builders@...> wrote:
Wicks Aircraft stocks the compression spring that we use for the hidden rudder belhorn installation. Their part number is spring-1887, and they are around $6 each.
The builder is required to bend some 0.050 diameter music wire and put together the spring assembly.

I started out trying to bend the music using crude tools (pliers, needle nose, screw drivers), and the results were ugly.  The music wire folds (weak spots) instead of having curves.  I show the results in the first photo.

I don't have a music wire bender, and my tubing bender won't give the tight radius required for these belhorn springs, so I started poking around my shop to see what else might work.  I don't know why I have a small set of brass hinges in my shop.... but guess what!  They work great as a music wire bender!  Just drill a hole through both hinge halves, right next to one end of the hinge pin.  Insert music wire through the hole, then rotate the hinge.  Its smoothly bends the wire, up to a bend of around 200 degrees.

The small hinges work to create bends that, while not perfect, are much better than when using the crude hand tools.

No crude tools here, no-way!  I posted a few small photos (yes, all less than the 100kb limit) to illustrate.

Andrew Anunson
Cozy MKIV #1273
Chapter 20
Pound, VA  







--
Bill Allen
LongEz160 N99BA FD51
CZ4 G-BYLZ EGBJ


Re: COZY: Hidden Rudder Belhorn Compression Spring

Bill Allen
 

What a great idea Andrew - Education and recreation !

Bill Allen


On Tuesday, 17 May 2016, 'Andrew Anunson' via COZY Builders Mailing List <cozy_builders@...> wrote:
Wicks Aircraft stocks the compression spring that we use for the hidden rudder belhorn installation. Their part number is spring-1887, and they are around $6 each.
The builder is required to bend some 0.050 diameter music wire and put together the spring assembly.

I started out trying to bend the music using crude tools (pliers, needle nose, screw drivers), and the results were ugly.  The music wire folds (weak spots) instead of having curves.  I show the results in the first photo.

I don't have a music wire bender, and my tubing bender won't give the tight radius required for these belhorn springs, so I started poking around my shop to see what else might work.  I don't know why I have a small set of brass hinges in my shop.... but guess what!  They work great as a music wire bender!  Just drill a hole through both hinge halves, right next to one end of the hinge pin.  Insert music wire through the hole, then rotate the hinge.  Its smoothly bends the wire, up to a bend of around 200 degrees.

The small hinges work to create bends that, while not perfect, are much better than when using the crude hand tools.

No crude tools here, no-way!  I posted a few small photos (yes, all less than the 100kb limit) to illustrate.

Andrew Anunson
Cozy MKIV #1273
Chapter 20
Pound, VA  







--
Bill Allen
LongEz160 N99BA FD51
CZ4 G-BYLZ EGBJ


Hidden Rudder Belhorn Compression Spring

Andrew Anunson
 

Wicks Aircraft stocks the compression spring that we use for the hidden rudder belhorn installation. Their part number is spring-1887, and they are around $6 each.
The builder is required to bend some 0.050 diameter music wire and put together the spring assembly.

I started out trying to bend the music using crude tools (pliers, needle nose, screw drivers), and the results were ugly.  The music wire folds (weak spots) instead of having curves.  I show the results in the first photo.

I don't have a music wire bender, and my tubing bender won't give the tight radius required for these belhorn springs, so I started poking around my shop to see what else might work.  I don't know why I have a small set of brass hinges in my shop.... but guess what!  They work great as a music wire bender!  Just drill a hole through both hinge halves, right next to one end of the hinge pin.  Insert music wire through the hole, then rotate the hinge.  Its smoothly bends the wire, up to a bend of around 200 degrees.

The small hinges work to create bends that, while not perfect, are much better than when using the crude hand tools.

No crude tools here, no-way!  I posted a few small photos (yes, all less than the 100kb limit) to illustrate.

Andrew Anunson
Cozy MKIV #1273
Chapter 20
Pound, VA  






Re: Steel, Rust, Epoxy, Primer

Joel Ventura
 

I have no special expertise in this area, so what you are getting from me is third hand info for what it is worth.  

About 10 or 15 years ago I attended a forum at Oshkosh, given by someone who was well qualified to speak on the subject. I would have to dig through my old notes to get his name, but I was surprised by what he said, so I remember it well (though I can not remember where I parked my car this morning).  

He said that epoxying to bare steel or aluminum should never be considered to be a structural bond.  Most bonding epoxies are pervious to water vapor, and water will eventually travel through the epoxy layer and cause corrosion at the metal surface, breaking down the bond between the metal surface and the epoxy.  This may take months to decades depending on the details of the materials and the environment, but it will eventually happen.  Most composite designers are aware of this problem, and therefore when a structural issue is involved, they will encapsulate the metal part as much as possible, so that even if the metal to epoxy bond is broken, the part can not go anywhere.  If that can not be done, his recommendation was to stabilize the metal surface first, for example by a chromate conversion coating or with Alodine for aluminum, so that even if liquid water somehow forms at the epoxy-metal boundary, it can not do anything nasty.

I assume the epoxy bonds to the aluminum vent lines in my LongEz fuel tanks are still intact after 34 years, because they do not leak around the lines when I pressurize or partially evacuate the tanks.  However, I have seen VariEze wing fittings and other cases where that bond has been completely broken after a few years in service.  The VariEze wing fittings is a special case because there the water had an open boundary between the metal and epoxy to attack, and a pocket could form to hold liquid water at that boundary.
--Joel

On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 9:54 PM, Andrew Anunson macleodm3@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators-noreply@...> wrote:
 

When embedding uncoated steel in the aircraft structure, do our epoxies prevent the steel from rusting?
If we apply zinc chromate primer to steel for rust prevention, will our epoxies bond to that primer?

Thanks,
Andrew Anunson
Cozy MKIV #1273
Chapter 20
Pound, VA



Re: Copper tube ground

Richard Thomson
 

Hi Greg,

If you are using Tefzel possibly, but I personally prefer to run high current feeders separately.

Richard Thomson.


Re: Copper tube ground

Dale Martin
 

Bob Nuckolls put that in an very old cop of the Aero-Electric' Connection.  Said, "he wished he would have never printed that."

Dale
http://www.long-ez.com
=====================>
Adios y vaya con Dios!

On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 9:51 AM, vance atkinson nostromo56@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators-noreply@...> wrote:
 

I second that.. Not recommending such a load carrying wire inside the copper or aluminum tube.

Vance Atkinson
EAA Flt and Tech advisor.
COZY N43CZ
VEZ N3LV

On 5/16/2016 10:17 AM, skyeyecorp@... [canard-aviators] wrote:
 

At one point, that was a fashionable thing to do. It was done that way in my plane by the original builder. I would not do that. I don't believe it saves any weight, there is the potential for any wire to chafe and short out against the copper, in my plane it makes the area around the main gear attach bolts overly crowded against fuel, brake, and other lines. Furthermore, it invites certain wires to be bunched together, when they might be better off with some separation to mitigate against electrical interference. Nope, I wouldn't do it.
--Jose
 
 
 



Re: Copper tube ground

Vance Atkinson
 

I second that.. Not recommending such a load carrying wire inside the copper or aluminum tube.

Vance Atkinson
EAA Flt and Tech advisor.
COZY N43CZ
VEZ N3LV

On 5/16/2016 10:17 AM, skyeyecorp@... [canard-aviators] wrote:
 

At one point, that was a fashionable thing to do. It was done that way in my plane by the original builder. I would not do that. I don't believe it saves any weight, there is the potential for any wire to chafe and short out against the copper, in my plane it makes the area around the main gear attach bolts overly crowded against fuel, brake, and other lines. Furthermore, it invites certain wires to be bunched together, when they might be better off with some separation to mitigate against electrical interference. Nope, I wouldn't do it.
--Jose
 
 
 


Re: COZY: Wire sleeving / protection

Greg Norman
 

Waddya mean?

On Sat, May 14, 2016 at 5:52 PM, 'Marc J. Zeitlin' marc_zeitlin@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators-noreply@...> wrote:
 

Andrew Anunson wrote:
 
What is a generous service loop?

7.3. You get to pick the units.

Depends on the installation. If you're wiring a harness to an instrument / piece of avionics, allow for the thing to be moved in the IP - folks reconfigure panels regularly, and being able to move an instrument without having to rewire it - maybe just cut a few tie-wraps and relocate a bundle attachment to the fuselage side - is a lot simpler. But heuristics are better than description - here are examples of some nice wiring:


I'd have left longer harnesses in the 2nd,3rd and fourth, but obviously, nicely done. The wires are not just pulled from point to point, dangling in space in singletons.

Bundles help support each other and make for fewer stress/fatigue failures at connections. Don't pull wires tight at connectors - leave some slack for a bit of motion or for when you bonk into it while doing maintenance.

This, not so much:


Eh. It's probably average to maybe even slightly above average for homebuilder wiring, but it's less than optimal. I can't find many pics of lousy wiring - folks tend not to throw pics of lousy work up in public. But if you work on EAB aircraft, you see a LOT of crappy wiring jobs.

Other than the excess protection on this particular plane, the wiring was mostly nicely done. I'm getting pickier as I get older...

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2016                     Burnside Aerospace



Re: COZY: Belleville Washer Stacks

Marc J. Zeitlin
 

Palmer Reising wrote:

Do you see any problem with using an eight (8) Belleville washer stack on the 1/2 inch Propeller bolts on a Cozy III with an O-360...

Problem? No. Completely unnecessary and heavy? Yes. Most people using bellevilles run either two or four. With 1/2" bolts, almost all use four. Eight, as they say, is right out.
 
or would you suggest buying new bolts and using a four or six stack?

New bolts and a stack of four.
 
Catto Propellers didn't seem to have any objections since they sent 24 additional Belleville washers.

They sent new washers because you apparently bought a new prop, and Craig is now sending bellevilles BY DEFAULT with every new prop, as he's seen the light and caught the religion :-). He doesn't know what you've already got on your airplane.
 
Also, should I use a wide area washer against the crush plate with the stack. One wasn't there in the original installation (see photograph).

I always put an AN970 washer against the crushplate to protect the AL crushplate from damage from the steel belleville washer edges.

What would the proper configuration of all washers (thin, Belleville, medium and wide area) in each stack of eight be?

If you were going to use a stack of eight, you'd stack them the same way you'd stack four, but four groups of two opposing, rather than two groups of two opposing. This way, the force stays the same. If you're not familiar with the installation of Bellevilles, I'd suggest reading the information provided by Craig with the prop (if he sent something, which I assume he did), or Gary Hertzler's instructions for using Bellevilles, or go straight to the source and read the instructions at:


HOWEVER, my instructions are generic - for Hertzler or Catto props, USE THE MFG'S INSTRUCTIONS FOR BELLEVILLE INSTALLATION.

I'm installing a new Catto Three-Bladed Propeller and the hub is around 92 millimeters thick. The original Three-Bladed Catto propeller's hub is around 116 millimeters thick.

You will need shorter bolts - apparently, about an inch shorter. Get shorter bolts.
 
However, if I also use the wide area washer against the crush plate as shown in the PDF document about how to keep a wooden propeller on an aircraft with less work, I could gain about two threads more before bottoming out. Thus, I would have around seven threads before bottoming out.

Just get 1" shorter bolts and use four bellevilles/bolt.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2016                     Burnside Aerospace

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