Date   

Re: Nose Wheel Fork Assembly

Filipe Rosa
 


Nose Wheel Fork Assembly

Filipe Rosa
 

Hello,

I have the nose wheel as on the photos. The depression on the red circle is normal? It is supposed to be a ball between the spring of the NG15 and the plate?


Thanks,

Filipe




Re: Trailing Edge Fences

nosedragger48154
 

Thanks Bob!

 

Mike

 

From: canard-aviators@... Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 11:21 AM
To: canard
Subject: Re: [c-a] Trailing Edge Fences

 

 

Mike, that will go out today. Remember, this isn't my idea. I just copy stuff off the fastest LongEZ on the planet whenever I get a chance. Also, I copied the airfoil  template onto Formica for hotwiring. Anyone else that wants the templates ask Mike as I'm almost out of stamps. 

 

On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 5:44 AM 'Mike Scovel' ezdriver@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Good morning Bob, my address is 36432 Sherwood St. Livonia, MI  48154.  Thanks you!  Does the airfoil shape help in the flight characteristics of the plane?

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike Scovel

SE Michigan

VariEze

 

Mbl     (313) 608-7202

 

Email   ezdriver@...

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@... <canard-aviators@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 5:08 PM
To: canard <canard-aviators@...>
Subject: Re: [c-a] Trailing Edge Fences

 

 

Mike, I can't remember where I got that airfoil. A friend laser cut the template. You want I'll copy that and the profile onto paper for you and send it if you gimmie an address. Mr. Caliper shows the wide spot 4.75" from the front and it's 9/16" not 7/16" like I said earlier. 

 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 9:57 AM 'Mike Scovel' ezdriver@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Hi Bob, I had never seen one like that before.  Where did you get the template for that?

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike Scovel

SE Michigan

VariEze

 

Mbl     (313) 608-7202

 

Email   ezdriver@...

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@... <canard-aviators@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 10:40 AM
To: canard <canard-aviators@...>
Subject: Re: [c-a] Trailing Edge Fences

 

 

Mike Scovel, here you go. I had an extra one in the shop.

 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 6:12 AM 'Mike Scovel' ezdriver@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Good morning Bob, where is the wide point?

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike Scovel

SE Michigan

VariEze

 

Mbl     (313) 608-7202

 

Email   ezdriver@...

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@... <canard-aviators@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:46 PM
To: canard <canard-aviators@...>
Subject: Re: [c-a] Trailing Edge Fences

 

 

 

I flew my LongEZ for a couple years with no vortilons or fences, no problem. Then...… I installed both and like magic my touchdown speed dropped 8-10 MPH. I noticed that on Klaus' LE the fences were airfoil shaped instead of flat so I did that too. The wide point is 7/16". I have exactly no idea whether that makes a difference or not.  

 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 5:04 PM DON JONES djonesdnd@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

TEF on a VariEze are well worth the trouble. They changed the slow flight characteristics dramatically for the better. The little VariEze wings just didn't want to quit flying. The TEF's make the little wing fly like a much bigger wing. 

 

Don Jones

VariEze 300DJ

Berkut FG 

 

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019, 4:41:26 PM CDT, 'Kevin R. Walsh' krwalsh@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 2:07 PM Michael Scovel ezdriver@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Ok gang, building a VariEze, have completed the Vortilons. How important is it to add the TEF’s. Will I gain anything from them? What I originally was thinking was getting my landing speed somewhere between 65 - 70 MPH and that the TEF’s would help me get there.. Am I thinking correctly?

 

There is a guy with a lot of experience that has an opinion about trailing edge fences:

 

 



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Re: Flying without air cleaner. [1 Attachment]

gilbert_drieux
 

Hello Izzy, Hello group,
I fly my Lyc O-235 VE with a RV Filtered Air box.
Ok. No problem.

They know this problem and provided some warning related to icing and/or snow :

You are right.

Best regards.


Gilbert-Pierre DRIEUX

                 (_
|-------==(_)==--------|  VE  #1736.
             o/ | \o               F-PMPZ @ LFPK.

Such is life und es wird immer sucher.


De : canard-aviators@... de la part de Izzy Briggs inbriggs@... [canard-aviators] Envoyé : jeudi 15 août 2019 17:21
À : AAaCanard Aviators
Objet : Re: [c-a] Flying without air cleaner. [1 Attachment]
 
 

I was with my Dad over DC (or maybe NYC) in 1986 flying IFR in a Mooney M20E with Power Boost (RAM air) active (engine is FI IO-360). The engine started running really rough and we stopped producing power enough to maintain altitude. It was IFR conditions near sunset. After a call to ATC and a few tense minutes of uncommanded decent towards rooftops he figured out it was induction ice in the RAM air system (called "Power Boost"). If your not familiar with RAM air in a Mooney M20E, it’s a door that opens in the cowling above the air filter box when you pull a lever next to the throttle. 

Perhaps scenarios like that were a factor in Mooney’s decision to delete the feature. I looked for any documented examples and found a couple accident reports for Mooney M20E's that suggest Power Boost system icing may have been factor. 

To be fair to Mooney, the POH is clear about not operating RAM air in moisture or icing conditions and there are warnings about inlet and fuel injector icing that can occur even when no visible moisture is on the airframe, which is similar to the conditions we were in. Not to make excuses, but it's probably easy to forget that it's open on a long IFR flight, especially when your single pilot IFR over the Northeast airspace. The lever and it's indicator are well below the primary 6 pack of instruments so it's not really part of a classic instrument normal scan.

Becasue I'm using a similar engine in my Cozy and do intend to fly IFR, I wanted to understand this system better. To evaluate the effects of RAM air, I equipped the VariEze (now part of RAFE) with an unfiltered RAM air scoop on the induction to feed a multiport fuel injection. The performance boost is very high, I can now keep up with my buddy's Cozy at 170 knots true and that scoop is part of the speed boost. Not sure exactly how much, but you can join RAFE and fly the plane yourself and conduct your own tests if you want that answer. I'm not ever going to be in anything close to icing with that plane. My Cozy on the other hand is set up for IFR with a RAM Air/filtered air selector, but it's not a scoop like on the Mooney but rather a butterfly valve on a big 3 inch Y tube, one side has the air filter, the other has the RAM air. I have a Bendix Fuel Servo with a 100 degree turn so it's facing the incoming airstream in the NACA scoop. I attached a few pictures.


Izzy



On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 09:24:28 PM EDT, TJ Johnson misbehaved@... [canard-aviators] wrote:


 

That is what my main bird is, a 66 Mooney M20E (a Super 21).  I can get another 5 or 6 knots switching to the ram air.  Sadly, it wasn't so much bypassing the filter though, as bypassing a poorly designed and restrictive primary airbox.  When they went to the 201, they redesigned the intake and were able to delete the ram air altogether.  For my money, I would much rather have a well designed filter/airbox system than to have unfiltered air.

TJ


On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 5:35 PM A R Goldman ARGOLDMAN@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
 

I remember in the mid to late ‘60s when I learned to fly, Mooney had a plane called the super 21. It was basically the M20C with, I think, with a fuel injected Lycoming. It had a control that when activated would open a flap in the front of the cowl and allow unfiltered “ram” air to the engine with some increased power.


I also seem to remember seeing Cessnas with leading wing  edges coated with insect cadavers. These are composed of chitin a very abrasive material.. Occasionally planes will fly through swarms of insects and thus, with no filter, will ingest these critters and their abrasiveness.

Perhaps that’s why Mooney gave the pilot the choice of when he/she wanted to use the added boost

Rich


On Aug 14, 2019, at 5:40 PM, Bob Holliston bob.holliston@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Aviatingfool, I had the exact same experience when I tried that with a carb. Someone said that only happens with carb's with a throttle pump. The reasoning is that the air somehow blows into that squirter tube and pressurizes the float bowl and changes the float level. When that happened to me I barely made it around the pattern blowing black smoke out the exhaust so could be true I guess. Throttle body's don't do that shit. 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 8:53 PM aviatingfool@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
 

Took my air cleaner off to see if the additional air flow would help cooling.  The engine ran poorly with weird throttle response.



--



--
TJ
Mooney M20E N3393X
PIK20 N202PK
VariEze N25TB
Glasair II FT in progress



Garanti sans virus. www.avast.com


Re: New engine /cooling

Izzy
 

Those cone filters are pretty large. Removing it probably allowed a lot more air to flow and perhaps it was oriented in a way that was blocking flow to #2 a bit more than others. 

#2 runs hot on the Cozy 3 as well. Every couple hundred hours we're working to seal up more baffle holes that open up for whatever reasons and every time we seal a hole we get colder temps.

Izzy
(603)410-7277


On Monday, August 12, 2019, 11:56:43 AM EDT, David Fife aircrafttips@... [canard-aviators] wrote:


 

Forgot one thing.  We don’t feel we have a heating issue with the cylinders. Just trying to perfect for optimum performance.
OIL. we would like it to be 190 or 185.  That’s what the old eng was. At this time we will not change anything here and feel when broke in it will decrease and when flying higher and at LOP the oil temp will come down a few degrees.

On Aug 12, 2019, at 9:12 AM, Tim Andres tim2542@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

What is your C/R and ignition timing? What type fuel system? You need to be at 20° BTDC  maybe less if you're running a higher C/R. If your have injection, do a GAMI spread test and see how well your cyl’s are balanced. 
And as Jay said try LOP,   20°-40° LOP will cool things off nicely if the system is balance well.
Tim Andres

On Aug 11, 2019, at 11:25 PM, David Fife aircrafttips@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Hi all, let’s talk new engine and cooling.


This will have a lot of info. If you respond please keep your comments on subject.

Long EZ, 12LZ Curt Martin & Dave Fife

Facts: new engine IO320, NEW jugs, pistons, rings etc. There was other work on the engine to satisfy our wants, they were all done correctly per Lycoming but I will not give away our secrets.

12 hrs so far, running engine hard per lycoming to break it in.
It is still consuming oil but within normal limits.

Latest testing numbers:
Flying showed #2 was hot around 418, others in the 370’s. Oil 218.....

After 10 hrs We decided to close up some baffling around the in cowl exhaust pipes.
Test flight at 4500 ft, 2500 rpm, 7.8 gph.  
#1.    381
#2.    418
#3.    356
#4.    377..   This cyl was the leanest according to Dynon with bayonet probes, all were quantified for correct accuracy.

Oil temp 208.
11 hrs....

Better but not good enough.

Removed K & N, cone type air filter, installed 1/8 “ screen as Doug Kouri has done.
This really opened the NACA cooling updraft.

Altitude 3500 ft, 2500 ft, 
10 gph
#1.    345
#2.    349
#3.    348
#4.    380

Oil. 201
Big change,  hot cyl changed from #2 to #4.  We attribute this to more air flow.

Leaned to 9 gph,  3500 alt, 2500 rpm

#1.    356
#2.    357
#3...    356
#4.    384.       A net difference of 28 degrees between hottest and coolest.

Oil 201.   Better again.

So my questions.  
Do we fly without air filter? 
Do we open the baffle around #4?
What else?

What we will be doing:
Put more hrs on the engine.
Fly a little higher and lean a little more?
How lean, per gph and temps?

Once we have more numbers we will be going Air Flow and discuss with them.

Thanks in advance for you knowledge and facts.

Dave Fife


Re: Flying without air cleaner.

Izzy
 

I was with my Dad over DC (or maybe NYC) in 1986 flying IFR in a Mooney M20E with Power Boost (RAM air) active (engine is FI IO-360). The engine started running really rough and we stopped producing power enough to maintain altitude. It was IFR conditions near sunset. After a call to ATC and a few tense minutes of uncommanded decent towards rooftops he figured out it was induction ice in the RAM air system (called "Power Boost"). If your not familiar with RAM air in a Mooney M20E, it’s a door that opens in the cowling above the air filter box when you pull a lever next to the throttle. 

Perhaps scenarios like that were a factor in Mooney’s decision to delete the feature. I looked for any documented examples and found a couple accident reports for Mooney M20E's that suggest Power Boost system icing may have been factor. 

To be fair to Mooney, the POH is clear about not operating RAM air in moisture or icing conditions and there are warnings about inlet and fuel injector icing that can occur even when no visible moisture is on the airframe, which is similar to the conditions we were in. Not to make excuses, but it's probably easy to forget that it's open on a long IFR flight, especially when your single pilot IFR over the Northeast airspace. The lever and it's indicator are well below the primary 6 pack of instruments so it's not really part of a classic instrument normal scan.

Becasue I'm using a similar engine in my Cozy and do intend to fly IFR, I wanted to understand this system better. To evaluate the effects of RAM air, I equipped the VariEze (now part of RAFE) with an unfiltered RAM air scoop on the induction to feed a multiport fuel injection. The performance boost is very high, I can now keep up with my buddy's Cozy at 170 knots true and that scoop is part of the speed boost. Not sure exactly how much, but you can join RAFE and fly the plane yourself and conduct your own tests if you want that answer. I'm not ever going to be in anything close to icing with that plane. My Cozy on the other hand is set up for IFR with a RAM Air/filtered air selector, but it's not a scoop like on the Mooney but rather a butterfly valve on a big 3 inch Y tube, one side has the air filter, the other has the RAM air. I have a Bendix Fuel Servo with a 100 degree turn so it's facing the incoming airstream in the NACA scoop. I attached a few pictures.


Izzy



On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 09:24:28 PM EDT, TJ Johnson misbehaved@... [canard-aviators] wrote:


 

That is what my main bird is, a 66 Mooney M20E (a Super 21).  I can get another 5 or 6 knots switching to the ram air.  Sadly, it wasn't so much bypassing the filter though, as bypassing a poorly designed and restrictive primary airbox.  When they went to the 201, they redesigned the intake and were able to delete the ram air altogether.  For my money, I would much rather have a well designed filter/airbox system than to have unfiltered air.

TJ


On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 5:35 PM A R Goldman ARGOLDMAN@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
 

I remember in the mid to late ‘60s when I learned to fly, Mooney had a plane called the super 21. It was basically the M20C with, I think, with a fuel injected Lycoming. It had a control that when activated would open a flap in the front of the cowl and allow unfiltered “ram” air to the engine with some increased power.


I also seem to remember seeing Cessnas with leading wing  edges coated with insect cadavers. These are composed of chitin a very abrasive material.. Occasionally planes will fly through swarms of insects and thus, with no filter, will ingest these critters and their abrasiveness.

Perhaps that’s why Mooney gave the pilot the choice of when he/she wanted to use the added boost

Rich


On Aug 14, 2019, at 5:40 PM, Bob Holliston bob.holliston@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Aviatingfool, I had the exact same experience when I tried that with a carb. Someone said that only happens with carb's with a throttle pump. The reasoning is that the air somehow blows into that squirter tube and pressurizes the float bowl and changes the float level. When that happened to me I barely made it around the pattern blowing black smoke out the exhaust so could be true I guess. Throttle body's don't do that shit. 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 8:53 PM aviatingfool@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
 

Took my air cleaner off to see if the additional air flow would help cooling.  The engine ran poorly with weird throttle response.



--



--
TJ
Mooney M20E N3393X
PIK20 N202PK
VariEze N25TB
Glasair II FT in progress



Re: Trailing Edge Fences

Bob Holliston
 

Mike, that will go out today. Remember, this isn't my idea. I just copy stuff off the fastest LongEZ on the planet whenever I get a chance. Also, I copied the airfoil  template onto Formica for hotwiring. Anyone else that wants the templates ask Mike as I'm almost out of stamps. 


On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 5:44 AM 'Mike Scovel' ezdriver@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
 

Good morning Bob, my address is 36432 Sherwood St. Livonia, MI  48154.  Thanks you!  Does the airfoil shape help in the flight characteristics of the plane?

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike Scovel

SE Michigan

VariEze

 

Mbl     (313) 608-7202

 

Email   ezdriver@...

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@... <canard-aviators@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 5:08 PM
To: canard <canard-aviators@...>
Subject: Re: [c-a] Trailing Edge Fences

 

 

Mike, I can't remember where I got that airfoil. A friend laser cut the template. You want I'll copy that and the profile onto paper for you and send it if you gimmie an address. Mr. Caliper shows the wide spot 4.75" from the front and it's 9/16" not 7/16" like I said earlier. 

 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 9:57 AM 'Mike Scovel' ezdriver@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Hi Bob, I had never seen one like that before.  Where did you get the template for that?

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike Scovel

SE Michigan

VariEze

 

Mbl     (313) 608-7202

 

Email   ezdriver@...

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@... <canard-aviators@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 10:40 AM
To: canard <canard-aviators@...>
Subject: Re: [c-a] Trailing Edge Fences

 

 

Mike Scovel, here you go. I had an extra one in the shop.

 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 6:12 AM 'Mike Scovel' ezdriver@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Good morning Bob, where is the wide point?

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike Scovel

SE Michigan

VariEze

 

Mbl     (313) 608-7202

 

Email   ezdriver@...

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@... <canard-aviators@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:46 PM
To: canard <canard-aviators@...>
Subject: Re: [c-a] Trailing Edge Fences

 

 

 

I flew my LongEZ for a couple years with no vortilons or fences, no problem. Then...… I installed both and like magic my touchdown speed dropped 8-10 MPH. I noticed that on Klaus' LE the fences were airfoil shaped instead of flat so I did that too. The wide point is 7/16". I have exactly no idea whether that makes a difference or not.  

 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 5:04 PM DON JONES djonesdnd@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

TEF on a VariEze are well worth the trouble. They changed the slow flight characteristics dramatically for the better. The little VariEze wings just didn't want to quit flying. The TEF's make the little wing fly like a much bigger wing. 

 

Don Jones

VariEze 300DJ

Berkut FG 

 

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019, 4:41:26 PM CDT, 'Kevin R. Walsh' krwalsh@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 2:07 PM Michael Scovel ezdriver@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Ok gang, building a VariEze, have completed the Vortilons. How important is it to add the TEF’s. Will I gain anything from them? What I originally was thinking was getting my landing speed somewhere between 65 - 70 MPH and that the TEF’s would help me get there.. Am I thinking correctly?

 

There is a guy with a lot of experience that has an opinion about trailing edge fences:

 

 



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--



--


Re: Trailing Edge Fences

besmith51
 

Thinking about span-wise flow and the vortex it creates as it meets the symmetric airfoil trailing edge fence (is it still a "fence" if it has an airfoil shape?), if one really wanted to get nit-picky they'd make a fence with a slightly greater airfoil on the inboard side (How much?  I'm no aero-engineer.).  One might avoid losing .002 knots by doing this but it might be worth, say, 6 knots in conversation value if anyone noticed.

Bruce Smith

On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 5:44 AM 'Mike Scovel' ezdriver@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
 

Good morning Bob, my address is 36432 Sherwood St. Livonia, MI  48154.  Thanks you!  Does the airfoil shape help in the flight characteristics of the plane?

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike Scovel

SE Michigan

VariEze

 

Mbl     (313) 608-7202

 

Email   ezdriver@...

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@... <canard-aviators@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 5:08 PM
To: canard <canard-aviators@...>
Subject: Re: [c-a] Trailing Edge Fences

 

 

Mike, I can't remember where I got that airfoil. A friend laser cut the template. You want I'll copy that and the profile onto paper for you and send it if you gimmie an address. Mr. Caliper shows the wide spot 4.75" from the front and it's 9/16" not 7/16" like I said earlier. 

 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 9:57 AM 'Mike Scovel' ezdriver@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Hi Bob, I had never seen one like that before.  Where did you get the template for that?

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike Scovel

SE Michigan

VariEze

 

Mbl     (313) 608-7202

 

Email   ezdriver@...

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@... <canard-aviators@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 10:40 AM
To: canard <canard-aviators@...>
Subject: Re: [c-a] Trailing Edge Fences

 

 

Mike Scovel, here you go. I had an extra one in the shop.

 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 6:12 AM 'Mike Scovel' ezdriver@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Good morning Bob, where is the wide point?

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike Scovel

SE Michigan

VariEze

 

Mbl     (313) 608-7202

 

Email   ezdriver@...

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@... <canard-aviators@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:46 PM
To: canard <canard-aviators@...>
Subject: Re: [c-a] Trailing Edge Fences

 

 

 

I flew my LongEZ for a couple years with no vortilons or fences, no problem. Then...… I installed both and like magic my touchdown speed dropped 8-10 MPH. I noticed that on Klaus' LE the fences were airfoil shaped instead of flat so I did that too. The wide point is 7/16". I have exactly no idea whether that makes a difference or not.  

 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 5:04 PM DON JONES djonesdnd@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

TEF on a VariEze are well worth the trouble. They changed the slow flight characteristics dramatically for the better. The little VariEze wings just didn't want to quit flying. The TEF's make the little wing fly like a much bigger wing. 

 

Don Jones

VariEze 300DJ

Berkut FG 

 

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019, 4:41:26 PM CDT, 'Kevin R. Walsh' krwalsh@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 2:07 PM Michael Scovel ezdriver@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Ok gang, building a VariEze, have completed the Vortilons. How important is it to add the TEF’s. Will I gain anything from them? What I originally was thinking was getting my landing speed somewhere between 65 - 70 MPH and that the TEF’s would help me get there.. Am I thinking correctly?

 

There is a guy with a lot of experience that has an opinion about trailing edge fences:

 

 



--



--



--


Re: Trailing Edge Fences

nosedragger48154
 

Good morning Bob, my address is 36432 Sherwood St. Livonia, MI  48154.  Thanks you!  Does the airfoil shape help in the flight characteristics of the plane?

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike Scovel

SE Michigan

VariEze

 

Mbl     (313) 608-7202

 

Email   ezdriver@...

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@... Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 5:08 PM
To: canard
Subject: Re: [c-a] Trailing Edge Fences

 

 

Mike, I can't remember where I got that airfoil. A friend laser cut the template. You want I'll copy that and the profile onto paper for you and send it if you gimmie an address. Mr. Caliper shows the wide spot 4.75" from the front and it's 9/16" not 7/16" like I said earlier. 

 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 9:57 AM 'Mike Scovel' ezdriver@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Hi Bob, I had never seen one like that before.  Where did you get the template for that?

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike Scovel

SE Michigan

VariEze

 

Mbl     (313) 608-7202

 

Email   ezdriver@...

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@... <canard-aviators@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 10:40 AM
To: canard <canard-aviators@...>
Subject: Re: [c-a] Trailing Edge Fences

 

 

Mike Scovel, here you go. I had an extra one in the shop.

 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 6:12 AM 'Mike Scovel' ezdriver@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Good morning Bob, where is the wide point?

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike Scovel

SE Michigan

VariEze

 

Mbl     (313) 608-7202

 

Email   ezdriver@...

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@... <canard-aviators@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 8:46 PM
To: canard <canard-aviators@...>
Subject: Re: [c-a] Trailing Edge Fences

 

 

 

I flew my LongEZ for a couple years with no vortilons or fences, no problem. Then...… I installed both and like magic my touchdown speed dropped 8-10 MPH. I noticed that on Klaus' LE the fences were airfoil shaped instead of flat so I did that too. The wide point is 7/16". I have exactly no idea whether that makes a difference or not.  

 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 5:04 PM DON JONES djonesdnd@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

TEF on a VariEze are well worth the trouble. They changed the slow flight characteristics dramatically for the better. The little VariEze wings just didn't want to quit flying. The TEF's make the little wing fly like a much bigger wing. 

 

Don Jones

VariEze 300DJ

Berkut FG 

 

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019, 4:41:26 PM CDT, 'Kevin R. Walsh' krwalsh@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 2:07 PM Michael Scovel ezdriver@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Ok gang, building a VariEze, have completed the Vortilons. How important is it to add the TEF’s. Will I gain anything from them? What I originally was thinking was getting my landing speed somewhere between 65 - 70 MPH and that the TEF’s would help me get there.. Am I thinking correctly?

 

There is a guy with a lot of experience that has an opinion about trailing edge fences:

 

 



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Re: Aileron Balance

Marc J. Zeitlin
 

Bob Holliston wrote:

2nd shot at replying here...

A pretty smart aero guy told me that aileron balance isn't that important because of the interconnect between the two ailerons unlike elevators.

I don't know who might have said that, but balancing control surfaces is important even if they're interconnected. Play and/or flexing (torsional, in this case) of the control system can also add to flutter susceptibility, even if things are properly balanced, so they're certainly not an excuse not to balance the ailerons. Also, a tail heavy aileron situation on once side could be exacerbated by a nose heavy aileron on the other side.

According to the late Richard Riley (Berkut principal, along with Dave Ronnenberg), the Long-EZ ailerons, IF PROPERLY BALANCED, had a critical flutter speed in the 300 KIAS region. But with play, additional flexibility, or unbalanced ailerons, we don't know what the critical speed is, so don't know our margin from it.

At any rate, it's still important to balance the ailerons as well as the elevators.

I recall that when Jet Guys did recip. EZ's only they made the statement that 3 out of 4 EZ's that came into their shop had unbalanced ailerons.

I've found that in the 100 or so planes I've worked on, about 1/3 of them have incorrectly balanced (either out of balance or balance weights in the wrong place) elevators, and about 1/3 - 1/2 have slightly unbalanced ailerons (hang just a bit TE low). So my experience is not substantially different from the Jet Guys' experience.


Ion Huss wrote:

I have 7/16" steel rods on the ailerons on my LEZ.

7/16" rods are standard on the COZY MKIV.
 
My ailerons balance slightly below the new spec and exhibit slight evidence of flutter which I mitigate by rebuilding the hinge pins with new heat shrink tubing every 1000 hrs, so far so good.

I'd be very surprised if what you're experiencing is flutter - aileron "buzz" with loose hinge pins is not unheard of, but is not an aerodynamically driven structural stiffness coupling - it's just the aileron moving a bit inside the hinges due to play. 

I'd suggest ensuring that your ailerons are re-balanced to be within specification, and replacing the hinges/hinge pins with teflon sleeved pins to prevent any wear.

I believe the overall weight of the aileron is a secondary issue compared to the static balance.

This is correct, and matches with what I was told by Scaled aerodynamicists who are far more conversant with flutter issues than I.

While I have personal experience dealing with aileron flutter from marginal static balance. As I recall Marc Z. said I was wrong about all this...

I'm not sure what "all this" is that you think I said you were wrong about. I agree with you on the 7/16" rods and the balance being far more important than the actual weight, and only disagree that you're experiencing flutter. 
 
-- 
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2019                     Burnside Aerospace


Re: Aileron balancing

Marc J. Zeitlin
 

Joe Berki wrote:

If it is heavy is it prone to flutter?


Balance is far more important than weight. Ensure that the ailerons balance correctly.
 

What finished weight is acceptable with paint and hinges?


The plans don't say - only that you can add up to 0.3 lb. of additional weight over the 3/8" rod. Since the 7/16" rod used in the COZY MKIV weighs about 0.75 lb. more than the 3/8" rod specified in the Long-EZ plans, and many COZY MKIV's have additional weight over that, and since no COZY MKIV has experienced aileron flutter, the evidence SEEMS to indicate that overall weight is not a critical factor.

Can ballast be added to the CS 132L bell crank which  is inboard at the wing root to balance the aileron?


NO. Weight added for flutter resistance must be added along the length of the aileron, just on top of (if there's clearance on top of the cove) or aft of the balance rod (or just replace the 3/8" rod with a 7/16" rod). As with the elevators, additional mass balance weight needs to be added outboard, NOT on an inboard mass balance horn.

-- 
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2019                     Burnside Aerospace


Re: Aileron Balance

Marc J. Zeitlin
 

Bob Holliston wrote:
 
A pretty smart aero guy told me that aileron balance isn't that important because of the interconnect between the two ailerons unlike elevators.

I don't know who would have said that, but balancing control surfaces so that the nose is heavy (and within the published tolerance) IS important. While the interconnect MAY help out, it's still possible that a tail heavy aileron on one side could overbalance a slightly less tail heavy aileron (or possibly nose heavy, as it should be) aileron on the other side. And the stiffness of and play in the interconnect system will strongly affect the flutter resistance as well.

Now, according to the late Richard Riley (Berkut principal, along with Dave Ronnenberg), the critical flutter speed of the Long-EZ ailerons WHEN BALANCED CORRECTLY is on the order of 300 KIAS - far faster than any of us ever fly our planes. So it may be the case that even with some play in the system, and even with slightly unbalanced ailerons, thew critical speed is still well above where we fly, BUT, since we don't know what that margin is, why take the chance, because we don't know how much the margin is affected by play, stiffness of the interconnect, and unbalance?

Personally, I've never been that curious to find out and have always flown with balances ailerons. I recall that when Jet Guys did recip. EZ's only they made the statement that 3 out of 4 EZ's that came into their shop had unbalanced ailerons.

I find that maybe 1/3 of the planes I work on have slightly to more than slightly unbalanced elevators and maybe 1/2 have unbalanced ailerons. I tell those clients that they should restrict their IAS's to substantially under the published Vne until they have the unbalance corrected. I've never heard of a true aileron flutter instance on our planes, and the only elevator/canard flutter instances I'm aware of have occurred with GU canards.


Ion Huss wrote:

I have 7/16" steel rods on the ailerons on my LEZ.

And that's what the COZY MKIV plans call for as well, given the difficulty that many had with balancing with 3/8" rod.
 
My ailerons balance slightly below the new spec and exhibit slight evidence of flutter which I mitigate by rebuilding the hinge pins with new heat shrink tubing every 1000 hrs, so far so good.

I doubt that you're experiencing flutter - a slight "buzz" in the ailerons due to loose hinge pins isn't uncommon, but isn't aeroelastic flutter.

I believe the overall weight of the aileron is a secondary issue compared to the static balance.

This is what I have been told by folks at Scaled far more experienced with flutter analysis than I am. Mike M. indicated to me that the weight limits for elevators and ailerons were incorporated as an indicator of overall build quality, more than as a flutter mitigator.

... While I have personal experience dealing with aileron flutter from marginal static balance.

See above. Why not just install teflon hinge pin kits and balance the ailerons correctly?

As I recall Marc Z. said I was wrong about all this ...

I'm not sure what the "all this" that you think I said you were wrong about is - I agree with the "weight is less important than balance" statement, the use of 7/16" rods for balancing, and disagree that you're experiencing flutter.

-- 
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2019                     Burnside Aerospace


Re: Aileron Balance

Phil Kriley
 

Maybe I am missing something, but aileron balance has nothing to do with the two ailerons weighing the same, but everything to do with each aileron balancing trailing edge up.

Phil Kriley

On Aug 14, 2019, at 9:30 PM, Ryszard Zadow ryszardzadow@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 



It had nothing to do aileron flutter..

RZ

> On Aug 14, 2019, at 15:41, Ion Huss / Lisa Doughty lisnion@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
>
> since I've never heard of an instance of this beyond the latest Jet EZ crash)


Re: Aileron Balance

Ryszard Zadow
 

<since I've never heard of an instance of this beyond the latest Jet EZ crash)>

It had nothing to do aileron flutter..

RZ

On Aug 14, 2019, at 15:41, Ion Huss / Lisa Doughty lisnion@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

since I've never heard of an instance of this beyond the latest Jet EZ crash)


Re: Flying without air cleaner.

David A Froble
 

On 8/14/2019 6:40 PM, Bob Holliston bob.holliston@... [canard-aviators] wrote:


Aviatingfool, I had the exact same experience when I tried that with a
carb. Someone said that only happens with carb's with a throttle pump.
The reasoning is that the air somehow blows into that squirter tube and
pressurizes the float bowl and changes the float level. When that
happened to me I barely made it around the pattern blowing black smoke
out the exhaust so could be true I guess. Throttle body's don't do that
shit.
I'd guess fuel injection would not either ....

Got to wonder, if a large number of people got together, and approached the FI mfgs for a quantity price, just what type of price might be achieved?

Perhaps same question with electronic ignition?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@...
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486


Re: Aileron Balance

Bob Holliston
 

A pretty smart aero guy told me that aileron balance isn't that important because of the interconnect between the two ailerons  unlike elevators. Personally, I've never been that curious to find out and have always flown with balances ailerons. I recall that when Jet Guys did recip. EZ's only they made the statement that 3 out of 4 EZ's that came into their shop had unbalanced ailerons. Could be true, I guess. 


On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 2:48 PM Ion Huss / Lisa Doughty lisnion@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
 

I have 7/16" steel rods on the ailerons on my LEZ. I recall the original balance spec was somewhere between the bottom and top surfaces of the ailerons being horizontal when hung from the hinge line. Later the spec was tightened to the nose-down half of that range. My ailerons balance slightly below the new spec and exhibit slight evidence of flutter which I mitigate by rebuilding the hinge pins with new heat shrink tubing every 1000 hrs, so far so good.

I believe the overall weight of the aileron is a secondary issue compared to the static balance. Yes, my ailerons are too heavy and have never shown any problems. I think it's because the wing structure is stiff enough to resist aileron driven wing flutter (since I've never heard of an instance of this beyond the latest Jet EZ crash) While I have personal experience dealing with aileron flutter from marginal static balance. As I recall Marc Z. said I was wrong about all this and he's a real engineer & I merely work as one sometimes.

I recall several discussions of this in the archives too.  

That's what I know.

Ion 
0-320 Long EZ 1575 hrs.



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Re: Flying without air cleaner.

TJ Johnson
 

That is what my main bird is, a 66 Mooney M20E (a Super 21).  I can get another 5 or 6 knots switching to the ram air.  Sadly, it wasn't so much bypassing the filter though, as bypassing a poorly designed and restrictive primary airbox.  When they went to the 201, they redesigned the intake and were able to delete the ram air altogether.  For my money, I would much rather have a well designed filter/airbox system than to have unfiltered air.

TJ


On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 5:35 PM A R Goldman ARGOLDMAN@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
 

I remember in the mid to late ‘60s when I learned to fly, Mooney had a plane called the super 21. It was basically the M20C with, I think, with a fuel injected Lycoming. It had a control that when activated would open a flap in the front of the cowl and allow unfiltered “ram” air to the engine with some increased power.


I also seem to remember seeing Cessnas with leading wing  edges coated with insect cadavers. These are composed of chitin a very abrasive material.. Occasionally planes will fly through swarms of insects and thus, with no filter, will ingest these critters and their abrasiveness.

Perhaps that’s why Mooney gave the pilot the choice of when he/she wanted to use the added boost

Rich


On Aug 14, 2019, at 5:40 PM, Bob Holliston bob.holliston@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Aviatingfool, I had the exact same experience when I tried that with a carb. Someone said that only happens with carb's with a throttle pump. The reasoning is that the air somehow blows into that squirter tube and pressurizes the float bowl and changes the float level. When that happened to me I barely made it around the pattern blowing black smoke out the exhaust so could be true I guess. Throttle body's don't do that shit. 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 8:53 PM aviatingfool@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
 

Took my air cleaner off to see if the additional air flow would help cooling.  The engine ran poorly with weird throttle response.



--



--
TJ
Mooney M20E N3393X
PIK20 N202PK
VariEze N25TB
Glasair II FT in progress



Re: Flying without air cleaner.

A R Goldman <ARGOLDMAN@...>
 

I remember in the mid to late ‘60s when I learned to fly, Mooney had a plane called the super 21. It was basically the M20C with, I think, with a fuel injected Lycoming. It had a control that when activated would open a flap in the front of the cowl and allow unfiltered “ram” air to the engine with some increased power.

I also seem to remember seeing Cessnas with leading wing  edges coated with insect cadavers. These are composed of chitin a very abrasive material. Occasionally planes will fly through swarms of insects and thus, with no filter, will ingest these critters and their abrasiveness.

Perhaps that’s why Mooney gave the pilot the choice of when he/she wanted to use the added boost

Rich


On Aug 14, 2019, at 5:40 PM, Bob Holliston bob.holliston@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Aviatingfool, I had the exact same experience when I tried that with a carb. Someone said that only happens with carb's with a throttle pump. The reasoning is that the air somehow blows into that squirter tube and pressurizes the float bowl and changes the float level. When that happened to me I barely made it around the pattern blowing black smoke out the exhaust so could be true I guess. Throttle body's don't do that shit. 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 8:53 PM aviatingfool@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
 

Took my air cleaner off to see if the additional air flow would help cooling.  The engine ran poorly with weird throttle response.



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Re: Flying without air cleaner.

Bob Holliston
 

Aviatingfool, I had the exact same experience when I tried that with a carb. Someone said that only happens with carb's with a throttle pump. The reasoning is that the air somehow blows into that squirter tube and pressurizes the float bowl and changes the float level. When that happened to me I barely made it around the pattern blowing black smoke out the exhaust so could be true I guess. Throttle body's don't do that shit. 


On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 8:53 PM aviatingfool@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
 

Took my air cleaner off to see if the additional air flow would help cooling.  The engine ran poorly with weird throttle response.



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Aileron Balance

Ion Huss / Lisa Doughty <lisnion@...>
 

I have 7/16" steel rods on the ailerons on my LEZ. I recall the original balance spec was somewhere between the bottom and top surfaces of the ailerons being horizontal when hung from the hinge line. Later the spec was tightened to the nose-down half of that range. My ailerons balance slightly below the new spec and exhibit slight evidence of flutter which I mitigate by rebuilding the hinge pins with new heat shrink tubing every 1000 hrs, so far so good.

I believe the overall weight of the aileron is a secondary issue compared to the static balance. Yes, my ailerons are too heavy and have never shown any problems. I think it's because the wing structure is stiff enough to resist aileron driven wing flutter (since I've never heard of an instance of this beyond the latest Jet EZ crash) While I have personal experience dealing with aileron flutter from marginal static balance. As I recall Marc Z. said I was wrong about all this and he's a real engineer & I merely work as one sometimes.

I recall several discussions of this in the archives too.  

That's what I know.

Ion 
0-320 Long EZ 1575 hrs.

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