Elevator balance check.


Kevin Kelly
 

The plans (chapter 11) describe an arrangement to hang elevators by the pivot on a GU canard upside down to check balance. Given that the pivot arrangement on the Roncz canard is different is there a way to check them???

Thanks and Happy Christmas 

Kevin Kelly


Andrew Anunson
 

Kevin Kelly wrote:
            The plans (chapter 11) describe an arrangement to hang elevators by the pivot on a GU canard upside down to check balance. Given that the pivot arrangement on the Roncz canard is different is there a             way to check them???

Here is a statement from the plans for the Cozy MKIV, which uses the Roncz canard...

"Bolt the CS-11 lead weights to the inboard side of the control arms on the CZNC-12A
assembly (see page 2), and check the balance of your elevators with one CZNC-12A
installed inboard on each elevator. The elevators should immediately hang nose
down when supported at the hinge points. If the elevators are correctly built with dry
layups and standard CS-10 and CS-11 lead weights, they will be nose heavy, even
after finish painting. If there is any tendency for the elevators to hang trailing edge
low, or if you think they might after finish painting, sand them vigorously with 36 grit
sandpaper. You can sand as much as 50 percent of the top ply of UND off the top
and bottom of each elevator. if you start to see the fibers of the first ply, stop sanding.
As long as these areas are no larger than 2 in. in diameter, there is no need to repair
them. If your elevators still won’t balance, it is permissible to add a maximum of 0.3
lb. to the forward end of the outboard mass balance weight (adding to the inboard
weight is not as effective in preventing flutter). If all of this fails to balance your elevators
nose down, you must start again and build new elevators. The elevators absolutely
must balance nosedown after finish painting. Nothing else is acceptable!"

Andrew Anunson
Cozy MKIV #1273
Chapter 18
Pound, VA



Keith Spreuer
 

Yes you can put the pin thru the hinge of the Ronce and suspend it using safety wire. It must have the counter weights on the outboard and inboard ends to balance correctly.

Keith

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 7:07 AM, Andrew Anunson macleodm3@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators-noreply@...> wrote:
 

Kevin Kelly wrote:
            The plans (chapter 11) describe an arrangement to hang elevators by the pivot on a GU canard upside down to check balance. Given that the pivot arrangement on the Roncz canard is different is there a             way to check them???

Here is a statement from the plans for the Cozy MKIV, which uses the Roncz canard...

"Bolt the CS-11 lead weights to the inboard side of the control arms on the CZNC-12A
assembly (see page 2), and check the balance of your elevators with one CZNC-12A
installed inboard on each elevator. The elevators should immediately hang nose
down when supported at the hinge points. If the elevators are correctly built with dry
layups and standard CS-10 and CS-11 lead weights, they will be nose heavy, even
after finish painting. If there is any tendency for the elevators to hang trailing edge
low, or if you think they might after finish painting, sand them vigorously with 36 grit
sandpaper. You can sand as much as 50 percent of the top ply of UND off the top
and bottom of each elevator. if you start to see the fibers of the first ply, stop sanding.
As long as these areas are no larger than 2 in. in diameter, there is no need to repair
them. If your elevators still won’t balance, it is permissible to add a maximum of 0.3
lb. to the forward end of the outboard mass balance weight (adding to the inboard
weight is not as effective in preventing flutter). If all of this fails to balance your elevators
nose down, you must start again and build new elevators. The elevators absolutely
must balance nosedown after finish painting. Nothing else is acceptable!"

Andrew Anunson
Cozy MKIV #1273
Chapter 18
Pound, VA




Andy Amendala <winglet@...>
 

Merry Christmas Kevin -
 
Indeed there is.  RAF published an alternative procedure for checking the static balance of Roncz canard elevators due to their slightly different geometry than the GU elevators.
 
See Page 4 of CP 108 which you can read here:
http://cozybuilders.org/Canard_Pusher/2002-04_cp-108.pdf
 
This assumes you have fabricated two knife-edge surfaces that can be easily leveled.  I recommend hot-gluing a hacksaw blade onto a piece of wood with the narrow edge facing up (make two).  See the following link for a picture of what I built - took about 30 minutes.  Notice the devices are tall enough to allow the elevator to flip completely over without the belhorns or balance weights hitting the table.
Here's the process: 

1.  Assemble each elevator with all appropriate hardware as if it was a finished elevator.  Be sure to bolt on the spool piece if checking the left elevator - it's trim belhorn affects the static balance so it should be present when you check it.  Insert the hinge pin to its installed depth.
2.  Set the knife edge devices you made on the table, parallel to each other and wide enough to span the elevator.  On the left knife edge, rest the hinge pin, on the right, rest the torque tube.
 
3.  Flip the elevator over so the bottom skin faces the ceiling and is level (use a dial indicator).  Do not leave the dial indicator on the elevator, just use it to find 0 degrees/level.  The elevator will not want to stay in this position (or at least it shouldn't), so you'll need to hold it.
 
4.  Let go of the elevator.  It should immediately move to flip its trailing edge toward the sky or at the worst case, stay absolutely still and level.  If the elevator demonstrates *any* tendency for its trailing edge to fall toward the ground, the elevator has failed its static balance check and needs work.
 
Drop me a note if you want a video or pictures of all of the above.  I've recorded it all in my build log.  Be sure to repeat the above process after any work is done to the elevators (filling, sanding, painting, priming), you name it.  They are very sensitive and balance changes rapidly.
Andy Amendala

From: canard-aviators-noreply@...
To: canard-aviators@...
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 12:47:53 +0000
Subject: [c-a] Elevator balance check.

 
The plans (chapter 11) describe an arrangement to hang elevators by the pivot on a GU canard upside down to check balance. Given that the pivot arrangement on the Roncz canard is different is there a way to check them???

Thanks and Happy Christmas 

Kevin Kelly




Jack Wilhelmson
 

When balancing elevators and ailerons,  The method I use is to assemble them with all the weights etc on the canard or wing without the controls attached and without the spool piece so they hang free individually. Sand and paint them as needed so that they hang with the trailing edge up at least 20 degrees.Comparing this method to the plans method seems to get the same result. Comments about this method will be welcomed.

Regards

Jack Wilhelmson
EZnoselift.com

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 8:35 PM, Andy Amendala winglet@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators-noreply@...> wrote:
 

Merry Christmas Kevin -
 
Indeed there is.  RAF published an alternative procedure for checking the static balance of Roncz canard elevators due to their slightly different geometry than the GU elevators.
 
See Page 4 of CP 108 which you can read here:
http://cozybuilders.org/Canard_Pusher/2002-04_cp-108.pdf
 
This assumes you have fabricated two knife-edge surfaces that can be easily leveled.  I recommend hot-gluing a hacksaw blade onto a piece of wood with the narrow edge facing up (make two).  See the following link for a picture of what I built - took about 30 minutes.  Notice the devices are tall enough to allow the elevator to flip completely over without the belhorns or balance weights hitting the table.
Here's the process: 

1.  Assemble each elevator with all appropriate hardware as if it was a finished elevator.  Be sure to bolt on the spool piece if checking the left elevator - it's trim belhorn affects the static balance so it should be present when you check it.  Insert the hinge pin to its installed depth.
2.  Set the knife edge devices you made on the table, parallel to each other and wide enough to span the elevator.  On the left knife edge, rest the hinge pin, on the right, rest the torque tube.
 
3.  Flip the elevator over so the bottom skin faces the ceiling and is level (use a dial indicator).  Do not leave the dial indicator on the elevator, just use it to find 0 degrees/level.  The elevator will not want to stay in this position (or at least it shouldn't), so you'll need to hold it.
 
4.  Let go of the elevator.  It should immediately move to flip its trailing edge toward the sky or at the worst case, stay absolutely still and level.  If the elevator demonstrates *any* tendency for its trailing edge to fall toward the ground, the elevator has failed its static balance check and needs work.
 
Drop me a note if you want a video or pictures of all of the above.  I've recorded it all in my build log.  Be sure to repeat the above process after any work is done to the elevators (filling, sanding, painting, priming), you name it.  They are very sensitive and balance changes rapidly.
Andy Amendala

From: canard-aviators-noreply@...
To: canard-aviators@...
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 12:47:53 +0000
Subject: [c-a] Elevator balance check.

 
The plans (chapter 11) describe an arrangement to hang elevators by the pivot on a GU canard upside down to check balance. Given that the pivot arrangement on the Roncz canard is different is there a way to check them???

Thanks and Happy Christmas 

Kevin Kelly





Andy Amendala <winglet@...>
 

For the ailerons, hanging them from the hinges by fishing line (or similar) and ensuring that they hang naturally somewhere between bottom surface level and top surface level is sufficient - as per the plans.
 
For GU elevators, resting each elevator on the hinge pin as you describe and verifying the trailing edge is up is also sufficient.  Though in my opinion, the spool piece should always be present as it is just as much a part of that linkage as any other component and due to its geometry, has a trailing edge down (nose up) effect on static balance.
 
However, the Roncz canard elevators vary sufficiently in geometry that they can hang favorably trailing edge up (nose down) yet still not be sufficiently statically balanced forward of the hinge line.  The centroid of the hinge pin is sufficiently close to the Cg in the vertical axis of the elevator that the most minor change in mass ahead or aft of the hinge line will result in a large change in balance characteristics.  I have seen two sets of Roncz canard elevators that hang trailing edge up 10-15 degrees yet when tested per the method Mike Melvill describes clearly in the CP I referenced - they fail the test.
 
My suggestion would be that if folks are assessing the static balance of Roncz elevators these days, that they follow the method Mike describes.
 
Andy
 

To: winglet@...
CC: kevkevkel@...; canard-aviators@...
From: canard-aviators-noreply@...
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 10:46:16 -0500
Subject: Re: [c-a] Elevator balance check.

 
When balancing elevators and ailerons,  The method I use is to assemble them with all the weights etc on the canard or wing without the controls attached and without the spool piece so they hang free individually. Sand and paint them as needed so that they hang with the trailing edge up at least 20 degrees.Comparing this method to the plans method seems to get the same result. Comments about this method will be welcomed.

Regards

Jack Wilhelmson
EZnoselift.com

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 8:35 PM, Andy Amendala winglet@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators-noreply@...> wrote:
 


Merry Christmas Kevin -
 
Indeed there is.  RAF published an alternative procedure for checking the static balance of Roncz canard elevators due to their slightly different geometry than the GU elevators.
 
See Page 4 of CP 108 which you can read here:
http://cozybuilders.org/Canard_Pusher/2002-04_cp-108.pdf
 
This assumes you have fabricated two knife-edge surfaces that can be easily leveled.  I recommend hot-gluing a hacksaw blade onto a piece of wood with the narrow edge facing up (make two).  See the following link for a picture of what I built - took about 30 minutes.  Notice the devices are tall enough to allow the elevator to flip completely over without the belhorns or balance weights hitting the table.
Here's the process: 

1.  Assemble each elevator with all appropriate hardware as if it was a finished elevator.  Be sure to bolt on the spool piece if checking the left elevator - it's trim belhorn affects the static balance so it should be present when you check it.  Insert the hinge pin to its installed depth.
2.  Set the knife edge devices you made on the table, parallel to each other and wide enough to span the elevator.  On the left knife edge, rest the hinge pin, on the right, rest the torque tube.
 
3.  Flip the elevator over so the bottom skin faces the ceiling and is level (use a dial indicator).  Do not leave the dial indicator on the elevator, just use it to find 0 degrees/level.  The elevator will not want to stay in this position (or at least it shouldn't), so you'll need to hold it.
 
4.  Let go of the elevator.  It should immediately move to flip its trailing edge toward the sky or at the worst case, stay absolutely still and level.  If the elevator demonstrates *any* tendency for its trailing edge to fall toward the ground, the elevator has failed its static balance check and needs work.
 
Drop me a note if you want a video or pictures of all of the above.  I've recorded it all in my build log.  Be sure to repeat the above process after any work is done to the elevators (filling, sanding, painting, priming), you name it.  They are very sensitive and balance changes rapidly.
Andy Amendala

From: canard-aviators-noreply@...
To: canard-aviators@...
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 12:47:53 +0000
Subject: [c-a] Elevator balance check.

 
The plans (chapter 11) describe an arrangement to hang elevators by the pivot on a GU canard upside down to check balance. Given that the pivot arrangement on the Roncz canard is different is there a way to check them???

Thanks and Happy Christmas 

Kevin Kelly







Christian Bailey <aetm12@...>
 

I searched and found this thread because my Berkut is in paint and the A&P
who is balancing the control surfaces asked for more detailed instructions
on limits – both for Elevator and Ailerons.

I understand that, like for the LongEZ, the elevator must balance trailing
edge up (as measured on bottom surface) when supported at the hinge rod. And
ailerons must balance between upper surface level and bottom surface level.

But the A&P has some follow-up questions:

1) Usually there is a tolerance range in inch pounds?

2) Are there limits on how much weight you can add if possible?
From the Canard Pusher helpfully linked by Andy, I have: “any Roncz
elevator, (after it has been balanced to the pivot line) that weighs more
than 3.8 lb (left) and 3.4 lb (right) should not be flown” and “if you have
to add weight, it MUST be added only to the outboard mass balance.”
I didn’t find anything for the ailerons, but assume that less weight is
needed for them so it’s not practically an issue.

3) Is there a defined limit to how trailing edge up elevators can or should
be? (As there is for the ailerons.)
From the CP, I have: “balance … elevators to at least the pivot axis, or
forward of it, after paint, and flight ready.”

Do I have all that right and is there anything else you would add?

Thank you,
Christian

Berkut 540 N6212



From: canard-aviators@yahoogroups.com <canard-aviators@yahoogroups.com> On
Behalf Of Andy Amendala winglet@live.com [canard-aviators]
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 8:35 PM
To: Kevin Kelly <kevkevkel@yahoo.com>; Canard Aviators Mailing List
<canard-aviators@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [c-a] Elevator balance check.

 
Merry Christmas Kevin -
 
Indeed there is.  RAF published an alternative procedure for checking the
static balance of Roncz canard elevators due to their slightly different
geometry than the GU elevators.
 
See Page 4 of CP 108 which you can read here:
[link removed because Yahoo Groups was flagging the message]
 
This assumes you have fabricated two knife-edge surfaces that can be easily
leveled.  I recommend hot-gluing a hacksaw blade onto a piece of wood with
the narrow edge facing up (make two).  See the following link for a picture
of what I built - took about 30 minutes.  Notice the devices are tall enough
to allow the elevator to flip completely over without the belhorns or
balance weights hitting the table.

Here's the process: 

1.  Assemble each elevator with all appropriate hardware as if it was a
finished elevator.  Be sure to bolt on the spool piece if checking the left
elevator - it's trim belhorn affects the static balance so it should be
present when you check it.  Insert the hinge pin to its installed depth.
2.  Set the knife edge devices you made on the table, parallel to each other
and wide enough to span the elevator.  On the left knife edge, rest the
hinge pin, on the right, rest the torque tube.
 
3.  Flip the elevator over so the bottom skin faces the ceiling and is level
(use a dial indicator).  Do not leave the dial indicator on the elevator,
just use it to find 0 degrees/level.  The elevator will not want to stay in
this position (or at least it shouldn't), so you'll need to hold it.
 
4.  Let go of the elevator.  It should immediately move to flip its trailing
edge toward the sky or at the worst case, stay absolutely still and level. 
If the elevator demonstrates *any* tendency for its trailing edge to fall
toward the ground, the elevator has failed its static balance check and
needs work.
 
Drop me a note if you want a video or pictures of all of the above.  I've
recorded it all in my build log.  Be sure to repeat the above process after
any work is done to the elevators (filling, sanding, painting, priming), you
name it.  They are very sensitive and balance changes rapidly.
Andy Amendala
________________________________________
From: mailto:canard-aviators-noreply@yahoogroups.com
To: mailto:canard-aviators@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 12:47:53 +0000
Subject: [c-a] Elevator balance check.

 
The plans (chapter 11) describe an arrangement to hang elevators by the
pivot on a GU canard upside down to check balance. Given that the pivot
arrangement on the Roncz canard is different is there a way to check them???

Thanks and Happy Christmas 

Kevin Kelly


aetm12@...
 

I searched and found this thread because my Berkut is in paint and the A&P who is balancing the control surfaces asked for more detailed instructions on limits – both for Elevator and Ailerons.

I understand that, like for the LongEZ, the elevator must balance trailing edge up (as measured on bottom surface) when supported at the hinge rod. And ailerons must balance between upper surface level and bottom surface level.

But the A&P has some follow-up questions:

1) Usually there is a tolerance range in inch pounds?

2) Are there limits on how much weight you can add if possible?
From the Canard Pusher helpfully linked by Andy, I have: “any Roncz elevator, (after it has been balanced to the pivot line) that weighs more than 3.8 lb (left) and 3.4 lb (right) should not be flown” and “if you have to add weight, it MUST be added only to the outboard mass balance.”
I didn’t find anything for the ailerons, but assume that less weight is needed for them so it’s not practically an issue.

3) Is there a defined limit to how trailing edge up elevators can or should be? (As there is for the ailerons.) From the CP, I have: “balance … elevators to at least the pivot axis, or forward of it, after paint, and flight ready.”

Yahoo Groups rejected this message the first time, so I already got a response from Canard-Aviatiors where Matt Bunch helpfully replied that this was covered in his and Zeitlin's 2013 Oshkosh forum: www.cozybuilders.org/Oshkosh_Presentations/2013_Zeitlin-Soup_To_Nuts.pdf pp19-23 - I'm going to send those pages to the A&P.

Christian

Berkut 540 N6212


Dale Martin
 

First of all, hows does the A&P “Think” he will balance the control surfaces?
Here is a perfect example why no A&P should ever touch an aircraft that he/she does not fully understand.

The A&P is looking for a number that doesn’t exist.  Your due diligence is enough and you have gathered the information of what the plans say to do.  Because of the experimental nature of our airplanes they are not required to comply with anything.  If you choose to fly your Berkut with unbalanced ailerons , you can give it a whirl (although unwise).  

The A&P is shopping for compliance when all he needs to be doing is insuring it is in condition for safe operation and he has absolutely no guidance other than what the plans, newsletters or pilot handbook shows us.

If the inspection was performed by a person who knew exactly what they were doing, you would not be asking the forum for their expertise (and not everyone on this forum knows the answer).


Be careful who you listen to,


Dale




On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 8:54 AM aetm12@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
 

I searched and found this thread because my Berkut is in paint and the A&P who is balancing the control surfaces asked for more detailed instructions on limits – both for Elevator and Ailerons.

I understand that, like for the LongEZ, the elevator must balance trailing edge up (as measured on bottom surface) when supported at the hinge rod. And ailerons must balance between upper surface level and bottom surface level.

But the A&P has some follow-up questions:

1) Usually there is a tolerance range in inch pounds?

2) Are there limits on how much weight you can add if possible?
From the Canard Pusher helpfully linked by Andy, I have: “any Roncz elevator, (after it has been balanced to the pivot line) that weighs more than 3.8 lb (left) and 3.4 lb (right) should not be flown” and “if you have to add weight, it MUST be added only to the outboard mass balance.”
I didn’t find anything for the ailerons, but assume that less weight is needed for them so it’s not practically an issue.

3) Is there a defined limit to how trailing edge up elevators can or should be? (As there is for the ailerons.) From the CP, I have: “balance … elevators to at least the pivot axis, or forward of it, after paint, and flight ready.”

Yahoo Groups rejected this message the first time, so I already got a response from Canard-Aviatiors where Matt Bunch helpfully replied that this was covered in his and Zeitlin's 2013 Oshkosh forum: www.cozybuilders.org/Oshkosh_Presentations/2013_Zeitlin-Soup_To_Nuts.pdf pp19-23 - I'm going to send those pages to the A&P.

Christian

Berkut 540 N6212

--
Dale
For Contact info - See Website
http://www.long-ez.com
=====================>


Ryszard Zadow
 

Exactly what Dale said! 

Ryz 

On Jun 22, 2019, at 13:25, Dale Martin Niceez@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

First of all, hows does the A&P “Think” he will balance the control surfaces?
Here is a perfect example why no A&P should ever touch an aircraft that he/she does not fully understand.

The A&P is looking for a number that doesn’t exist.  Your due diligence is enough and you have gathered the information of what the plans say to do.  Because of the experimental nature of our airplanes they are not required to comply with anything.  If you choose to fly your Berkut with unbalanced ailerons , you can give it a whirl (although unwise).  

The A&P is shopping for compliance when all he needs to be doing is insuring it is in condition for safe operation and he has absolutely no guidance other than what the plans, newsletters or pilot handbook shows us.

If the inspection was performed by a person who knew exactly what they were doing, you would not be asking the forum for their expertise (and not everyone on this forum knows the answer).


Be careful who you listen to,


Dale




On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 8:54 AM aetm12@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
 

I searched and found this thread because my Berkut is in paint and the A&P who is balancing the control surfaces asked for more detailed instructions on limits – both for Elevator and Ailerons.

I understand that, like for the LongEZ, the elevator must balance trailing edge up (as measured on bottom surface) when supported at the hinge rod. And ailerons must balance between upper surface level and bottom surface level.

But the A&P has some follow-up questions:

1) Usually there is a tolerance range in inch pounds?

2) Are there limits on how much weight you can add if possible?
From the Canard Pusher helpfully linked by Andy, I have: “any Roncz elevator, (after it has been balanced to the pivot line) that weighs more than 3.8 lb (left) and 3.4 lb (right) should not be flown” and “if you have to add weight, it MUST be added only to the outboard mass balance.”
I didn’t find anything for the ailerons, but assume that less weight is needed for them so it’s not practically an issue.

3) Is there a defined limit to how trailing edge up elevators can or should be? (As there is for the ailerons.) From the CP, I have: “balance … elevators to at least the pivot axis, or forward of it, after paint, and flight ready..”

Yahoo Groups rejected this message the first time, so I already got a response from Canard-Aviatiors where Matt Bunch helpfully replied that this was covered in his and Zeitlin's 2013 Oshkosh forum: www.cozybuilders.org/Oshkosh_Presentations/2013_Zeitlin-Soup_To_Nuts.pdf pp19-23 - I'm going to send those pages to the A&P.

Christian

Berkut 540 N6212

--
Dale
For Contact info - See Website
http://www.long-ez.com
=====================>


Christian Bailey <aetm12@...>
 

I’m just a pilot and not a builder, so I rely on the brain trust here for diligence. That’s the best I think I can do to be careful about sourcing. Thank you to you all for contributing.

 

From: canard-aviators@...
Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2019 2:25 PM
To: canard-aviators@...
Subject: Re: [c-a] Elevator balance check.

 

 

First of all, hows does the A&P “Think” he will balance the control surfaces?

Here is a perfect example why no A&P should ever touch an aircraft that he/she does not fully understand.

 

The A&P is looking for a number that doesn’t exist.  Your due diligence is enough and you have gathered the information of what the plans say to do.  Because of the experimental nature of our airplanes they are not required to comply with anything.  If you choose to fly your Berkut with unbalanced ailerons , you can give it a whirl (although unwise).  

 

The A&P is shopping for compliance when all he needs to be doing is insuring it is in condition for safe operation and he has absolutely no guidance other than what the plans, newsletters or pilot handbook shows us.

 

If the inspection was performed by a person who knew exactly what they were doing, you would not be asking the forum for their expertise (and not everyone on this forum knows the answer).

 

 

Be careful who you listen to,

 

 

Dale

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 8:54 AM aetm12@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

I searched and found this thread because my Berkut is in paint and the A&P who is balancing the control surfaces asked for more detailed instructions on limits – both for Elevator and Ailerons.

I understand that, like for the LongEZ, the elevator must balance trailing edge up (as measured on bottom surface) when supported at the hinge rod. And ailerons must balance between upper surface level and bottom surface level.

But the A&P has some follow-up questions:

1) Usually there is a tolerance range in inch pounds?

2) Are there limits on how much weight you can add if possible?
From the Canard Pusher helpfully linked by Andy, I have: “any Roncz elevator, (after it has been balanced to the pivot line) that weighs more than 3.8 lb (left) and 3.4 lb (right) should not be flown” and “if you have to add weight, it MUST be added only to the outboard mass balance.”
I didn’t find anything for the ailerons, but assume that less weight is needed for them so it’s not practically an issue.

3) Is there a defined limit to how trailing edge up elevators can or should be? (As there is for the ailerons.) From the CP, I have: “balance … elevators to at least the pivot axis, or forward of it, after paint, and flight ready..”

Yahoo Groups rejected this message the first time, so I already got a response from Canard-Aviatiors where Matt Bunch helpfully replied that this was covered in his and Zeitlin's 2013 Oshkosh forum: www.cozybuilders.org/Oshkosh_Presentations/2013_Zeitlin-Soup_To_Nuts.pdf pp19-23 - I'm going to send those pages to the A&P.

Christian

Berkut 540 N6212

--

Dale
For Contact info - See Website
http://www.long-ez.com
=====================>


Bob Holliston
 

Well said, Dale.


On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 11:25 AM Dale Martin Niceez@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
 

First of all, hows does the A&P “Think” he will balance the control surfaces?
Here is a perfect example why no A&P should ever touch an aircraft that he/she does not fully understand.

The A&P is looking for a number that doesn’t exist.  Your due diligence is enough and you have gathered the information of what the plans say to do.  Because of the experimental nature of our airplanes they are not required to comply with anything.  If you choose to fly your Berkut with unbalanced ailerons , you can give it a whirl (although unwise).  

The A&P is shopping for compliance when all he needs to be doing is insuring it is in condition for safe operation and he has absolutely no guidance other than what the plans, newsletters or pilot handbook shows us.

If the inspection was performed by a person who knew exactly what they were doing, you would not be asking the forum for their expertise (and not everyone on this forum knows the answer).


Be careful who you listen to,


Dale




On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 8:54 AM aetm12@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
 

I searched and found this thread because my Berkut is in paint and the A&P who is balancing the control surfaces asked for more detailed instructions on limits – both for Elevator and Ailerons.

I understand that, like for the LongEZ, the elevator must balance trailing edge up (as measured on bottom surface) when supported at the hinge rod. And ailerons must balance between upper surface level and bottom surface level.

But the A&P has some follow-up questions:

1) Usually there is a tolerance range in inch pounds?

2) Are there limits on how much weight you can add if possible?
From the Canard Pusher helpfully linked by Andy, I have: “any Roncz elevator, (after it has been balanced to the pivot line) that weighs more than 3.8 lb (left) and 3.4 lb (right) should not be flown” and “if you have to add weight, it MUST be added only to the outboard mass balance.”
I didn’t find anything for the ailerons, but assume that less weight is needed for them so it’s not practically an issue.

3) Is there a defined limit to how trailing edge up elevators can or should be? (As there is for the ailerons.) From the CP, I have: “balance … elevators to at least the pivot axis, or forward of it, after paint, and flight ready..”

Yahoo Groups rejected this message the first time, so I already got a response from Canard-Aviatiors where Matt Bunch helpfully replied that this was covered in his and Zeitlin's 2013 Oshkosh forum: www.cozybuilders.org/Oshkosh_Presentations/2013_Zeitlin-Soup_To_Nuts.pdf pp19-23 - I'm going to send those pages to the A&P.

Christian

Berkut 540 N6212

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Dale
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