COZY: 90 or 130 kts


Curt Boyll
 

Flying the 135 kt route at 2,300 ft includes being sent to Runway 36. I believe it is not possible for FISK and the Tower to put you on 9/27 if you fly the 135 kt/2,300 ft approach. (Correct me if I’m wrong about this.)

Keep in mind that even when you fly the 135 kt approach, FISK may still decide to put you behind VERY SLOW traffic, if that’s what they decide is necessary. In 2017, at 2,300 ft and 135 kts, I was not even close to FISK when they said, “Canard, turn right and get behind the two biplanes.” … which they also directed East over Fisk Boulevard and toward the 36 runways. 

I managed to slow down from 135 kts to 75 kts in about 90 seconds, mostly because it did not involve descending at this point. I spoke to one of the biplane pilots the next day, and he confirmed, “Yup, 75 knots is the best we can do."

IMHO, you DO NEED to be able to fly your airplane slowly, if this is required by ATC.

(Warning: Video view rotates 90 degrees to the right at the far end of the runway, halfway through the video. This may be disconcerting.)


Curt Boyll
canards, colorado


On Jul 15, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Steven W. Harmon <sharmon32@...> wrote:


Well I have read the notam several times.   Familiarized myself with all the approaches the 18 lr page 11 seems to be the most complicated landing over runway 9-27.
I am hoping for runway 36 it would be the best no taxing on grass.  I have never come up on a airport at 135 Knts. I always slow down a couple of miles out to 90 to get my gear down.   I hand crank and above 100 knots it is a bear cranking it down.   I will try and get there about 8:00 in the morning Saturday weather permitting I am hoping it will be less crowded.  I know a huge mass flight of some spam cans is supposed to arrive at 11:00 Saturday morning so coming later is a bad idea. See you all in Oshkosh.
Steve build on

Loving life in Idaho  
where living poor on the farm beats being rich in the city



DB
 

It is possible, they put me on 27 last year from 2300 feet!


On Jul 15, 2018, at 9:24 PM, 'Curt Boyll' via COZY Builders Mailing List <cozy_builders@...> wrote:

Flying the 135 kt route at 2,300 ft includes being sent to Runway 36. I believe it is not possible for FISK and the Tower to put you on 9/27 if you fly the 135 kt/2,300 ft approach. (Correct me if I’m wrong about this.)

Keep in mind that even when you fly the 135 kt approach, FISK may still decide to put you behind VERY SLOW traffic, if that’s what they decide is necessary. In 2017, at 2,300 ft and 135 kts, I was not even close to FISK when they said, “Canard, turn right and get behind the two biplanes.” … which they also directed East over Fisk Boulevard and toward the 36 runways. 

I managed to slow down from 135 kts to 75 kts in about 90 seconds, mostly because it did not involve descending at this point. I spoke to one of the biplane pilots the next day, and he confirmed, “Yup, 75 knots is the best we can do."

IMHO, you DO NEED to be able to fly your airplane slowly, if this is required by ATC.

(Warning: Video view rotates 90 degrees to the right at the far end of the runway, halfway through the video. This may be disconcerting.)


Curt Boyll
canards, colorado


On Jul 15, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Steven W. Harmon <sharmon32@...> wrote:


Well I have read the notam several times.   Familiarized myself with all the approaches the 18 lr page 11 seems to be the most complicated landing over runway 9-27.
I am hoping for runway 36 it would be the best no taxing on grass.  I have never come up on a airport at 135 Knts. I always slow down a couple of miles out to 90 to get my gear down.   I hand crank and above 100 knots it is a bear cranking it down.   I will try and get there about 8:00 in the morning Saturday weather permitting I am hoping it will be less crowded.  I know a huge mass flight of some spam cans is supposed to arrive at 11:00 Saturday morning so coming later is a bad idea. See you all in Oshkosh.
Steve build on

Loving life in Idaho  
where living poor on the farm beats being rich in the city



Marc J. Zeitlin
 

Curt Boyll wrote:

Flying the 135 kt route at 2,300 ft includes being sent to Runway 36. I believe it is not possible for FISK and the Tower to put you on 9/27 if you fly the 135 kt/2,300 ft approach. (Correct me if I’m wrong about this.)

You're wrong about this :-) - Any runway is possible from the high approach. I've been sent to 36, 18 and 27.
 
IMHO, you DO NEED to be able to fly your airplane slowly, if this is required by ATC.

True, but you are not required to do anything that ATC tells you if you determine that you can't do it SAFELY. You should not say "unable" willy-nilly, but you should be willing to say it if safety requires it. Worst case, you break out, circle Rush or Green Lake (or head southeast on the departure course) and head back to Ripon for another try.


Steve Harmon wrote:

I am hoping for runway 36 it would be the best no taxing on grass.

Yep. That's certainly the best if you're going to HBC and if you know that 36 is being used but they send you to 27 for whatever reason, you can request 36 if you can get a word in edgewise. They're usually good about it.

I have never come up on a airport at 135 Knts. I always slow down a couple of miles out to 90 to get my gear down.

There's time - generally, if going to 36, they'll turn you 45 degrees to the right to follow the eastbound road and you've got five miles between Fisk and the turn to 36 final to slow down to 80 KIAS and descend 500 ft. into the lower flow - they'll tell you who to follow. Chop the throttle and put out both rudders if you need to - it's not hard to get to a reasonable speed and altitude in the space allowed. Slip if you need to (and we should all be practicing slips in our planes on general principle). I've never needed the rudders or a slip - just the throttle reduction has always been more than adequate.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2018                     Burnside Aerospace


Rick Hall
 

Pilot In Command reply: "Unable".

Flying into Falcon Field (FFZ) on a semi hot day, I was cleared to land 22R (3800') straight in. Told tower "I need the long one", he immediately cleared me for 22L (5100'). PIC has the final say, just saying :)

Rick

On 7/15/2018 10:24 PM, Curt Boyll curtb442@... [canard-aviators] wrote:

Keep in mind that even when you fly the 135 kt approach, FISK may still decide to put you behind VERY SLOW traffic, if that’s what they decide is necessary. In 2017, at 2,300 ft and 135 kts, I was not even close to FISK when they said, “Canard, turn right and get behind the two biplanes.” … which they also directed East over Fisk Boulevard and toward the 36 runways.


skovbjerg
 

Last year I did get sent to rwy 27 from 2300/135kts. That proved to be a challenge because there you are supposed to turn a very tight base for a short final. All factors at play, I could not make that happen and land on the numbers as instructed and had to request an extended downwind to the lakeshore. That works! For me. All good pilots need not to worry.
See you there,
jay

On Jul 15, 2018, at 21:24, Curt Boyll curtb442@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Flying the 135 kt route at 2,300 ft includes being sent to Runway 36. I believe it is not possible for FISK and the Tower to put you on 9/27 if you fly the 135 kt/2,300 ft approach. (Correct me if I’m wrong about this.)


Keep in mind that even when you fly the 135 kt approach, FISK may still decide to put you behind VERY SLOW traffic, if that’s what they decide is necessary. In 2017, at 2,300 ft and 135 kts, I was not even close to FISK when they said, “Canard, turn right and get behind the two biplanes.” … which they also directed East over Fisk Boulevard and toward the 36 runways. 

I managed to slow down from 135 kts to 75 kts in about 90 seconds, mostly because it did not involve descending at this point. I spoke to one of the biplane pilots the next day, and he confirmed, “Yup, 75 knots is the best we can do."

IMHO, you DO NEED to be able to fly your airplane slowly, if this is required by ATC.

(Warning: Video view rotates 90 degrees to the right at the far end of the runway, halfway through the video. This may be disconcerting.)


Curt Boyll
canards, colorado


On Jul 15, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Steven W. Harmon <sharmon32@...> wrote:


Well I have read the notam several times.   Familiarized myself with all the approaches the 18 lr page 11 seems to be the most complicated landing over runway 9-27.
I am hoping for runway 36 it would be the best no taxing on grass.  I have never come up on a airport at 135 Knts. I always slow down a couple of miles out to 90 to get my gear down.   I hand crank and above 100 knots it is a bear cranking it down.   I will try and get there about 8:00 in the morning Saturday weather permitting I am hoping it will be less crowded.  I know a huge mass flight of some spam cans is supposed to arrive at 11:00 Saturday morning so coming later is a bad idea. See you all in Oshkosh.
Steve build on

Loving life in Idaho  
where living poor on the farm beats being rich in the city



Rick Hall
 

I know what I'll be practicing tomorrow! Thanks for the timely tidbit :)

Rick

On 7/15/2018 10:43 PM, 'Marc J. Zeitlin' marc_zeitlin@... [canard-aviators] wrote:
.... Chop the throttle and put out both rudders if you need to - it's not hard to get to a reasonable speed and altitude in the space allowed. Slip if you need to (and we should all be practicing slips in our planes on general principle). I've never needed the rudders or a slip - just the throttle reduction has always been more than adequate.


Nick U
 

Tim, I am with you on NOT taxing on the grass.   

A few years ago the ground people directed me on the grass and I ignorantly complied.  The ground was really rough and I ended up taxing into a nice hole which broke one of my wheel pants.   I have never allowed the ground crews to direct me into a grass taxiway again.   If your adamant and refuse to comply as PIC they will always shift you to a hard surface.  I now carry an addition sign in the plane, “NO GRASS TAXI” every time I fly into OSH just in case...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nick Ugolini

LongEZ N29TM  3060+ hrs
Charleston, SC www.nickugolini.com  
 
Building a Cozy 3, former owner of a Varieze and Cozy 4   



On Jul 16, 2018, at 11:02 AM, Tim Sullivan <timpvf@...> wrote:
Ground guys are telling me to pull off into the grass on the left, I’m pointing to the taxiway on the right. They keep shaking their heads no. I’m still pointing, their are still shaking. Argh. Alright I go left. Six feet past the edge of pavement I’m stuck in the muck. Oh, did I mention it rained pretty good the night before? So 20 minutes later and a dozen CAP and they lift and push me back in the runway so I could go over to the taxiway I had pointed to in the first place. This should have been no surprise to the ground crew because about 200 yards prior was a 310 stuck deep into the muck. 



Lessons learned, have both freqs loaded up in the radio. As It was said before PIC don’t pull into the grass. 

Tim Sullivan, Placerville CA


DB
 

I just tell them unable!


On Jul 16, 2018, at 8:30 AM, Nick U <unick3@...> wrote:

Tim, I am with you on NOT taxing on the grass.   

A few years ago the ground people directed me on the grass and I ignorantly complied.  The ground was really rough and I ended up taxing into a nice hole which broke one of my wheel pants.   I have never allowed the ground crews to direct me into a grass taxiway again.   If your adamant and refuse to comply as PIC they will always shift you to a hard surface.  I now carry an addition sign in the plane, “NO GRASS TAXI” every time I fly into OSH just in case...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nick Ugolini

LongEZ N29TM  3060+ hrs
Charleston, SC www.nickugolini.com  
 
Building a Cozy 3, former owner of a Varieze and Cozy 4   

Selling:  Canard Fuel Probes



On Jul 16, 2018, at 11:02 AM, Tim Sullivan <timpvf@...> wrote:
Ground guys are telling me to pull off into the grass on the left, I’m pointing to the taxiway on the right. They keep shaking their heads no. I’m still pointing, their are still shaking. Argh. Alright I go left. Six feet past the edge of pavement I’m stuck in the muck. Oh, did I mention it rained pretty good the night before? So 20 minutes later and a dozen CAP and they lift and push me back in the runway so I could go over to the taxiway I had pointed to in the first place. This should have been no surprise to the ground crew because about 200 yards prior was a 310 stuck deep into the muck. 



Lessons learned, have both freqs loaded up in the radio. As It was said before PIC don’t pull into the grass. 

Tim Sullivan, Placerville CA


Bob Holliston
 

Hey Steven Harmon, if you have trouble getting your gear down at over 100 knots you must have the plans (bad idea) fixed gear door. With REAL, retractable gear doors I can get my (hand crank) gear down at 160 MPH with some, but not great, effort.

On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 9:51 PM, Jorgen Skovbjerg skovbjerg@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:
 

Last year I did get sent to rwy 27 from 2300/135kts. That proved to be a challenge because there you are supposed to turn a very tight base for a short final. All factors at play, I could not make that happen and land on the numbers as instructed and had to request an extended downwind to the lakeshore. That works! For me. All good pilots need not to worry.
See you there,
jay

On Jul 15, 2018, at 21:24, Curt Boyll curtb442@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Flying the 135 kt route at 2,300 ft includes being sent to Runway 36. I believe it is not possible for FISK and the Tower to put you on 9/27 if you fly the 135 kt/2,300 ft approach. (Correct me if I’m wrong about this.)


Keep in mind that even when you fly the 135 kt approach, FISK may still decide to put you behind VERY SLOW traffic, if that’s what they decide is necessary. In 2017, at 2,300 ft and 135 kts, I was not even close to FISK when they said, “Canard, turn right and get behind the two biplanes.” … which they also directed East over Fisk Boulevard and toward the 36 runways. 

I managed to slow down from 135 kts to 75 kts in about 90 seconds, mostly because it did not involve descending at this point. I spoke to one of the biplane pilots the next day, and he confirmed, “Yup, 75 knots is the best we can do."

IMHO, you DO NEED to be able to fly your airplane slowly, if this is required by ATC.

(Warning: Video view rotates 90 degrees to the right at the far end of the runway, halfway through the video. This may be disconcerting.)


Curt Boyll
canards, colorado


On Jul 15, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Steven W. Harmon <sharmon32@...> wrote:


Well I have read the notam several times.   Familiarized myself with all the approaches the 18 lr page 11 seems to be the most complicated landing over runway 9-27.
I am hoping for runway 36 it would be the best no taxing on grass.  I have never come up on a airport at 135 Knts. I always slow down a couple of miles out to 90 to get my gear down.   I hand crank and above 100 knots it is a bear cranking it down.   I will try and get there about 8:00 in the morning Saturday weather permitting I am hoping it will be less crowded.  I know a huge mass flight of some spam cans is supposed to arrive at 11:00 Saturday morning so coming later is a bad idea. See you all in Oshkosh.
Steve build on

Loving life in Idaho  
where living poor on the farm beats being rich in the city





--


Izzy
 

Yea, be careful with those procedures at Oshkosh. I got down to 61 knots in my varieze in 2014 trying to keep behind an RV that was slowing for a landing. I hit his prop wash and tipped up 90 degrees and lost 200 feet.

At that point I abandoned the published procedures including breaking radio silence and told them I was going to land on the right side of the runway. They seemed to understand and didn’t push back. After landing I was expecting someone to come say something to me but no one ever did. 

Follow the rules as best you can but be sure to communicate a deviation if it becomes necessary for flight safety.  

No one will bite you and if they try they are probably a known asshole. 

Izzy


On Jul 15, 2018, at 23:45, Rick Hall rickh@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

Pilot In Command reply: "Unable".

Flying into Falcon Field (FFZ) on a semi hot day, I was cleared to land
22R (3800') straight in. Told tower "I need the long one", he
immediately cleared me for 22L (5100'). PIC has the final say, just
saying :)

Rick

On 7/15/2018 10:24 PM, Curt Boyll curtb442@... [canard-aviators]
wrote:
>
> Keep in mind that even when you fly the 135 kt approach, FISK may
> still decide to put you behind VERY SLOW traffic, if that’s what they
> decide is necessary. In 2017, at 2,300 ft and 135 kts, I was not even
> close to FISK when they said, “Canard, turn right and get behind the
> two biplanes.” … which they also directed East over Fisk Boulevard and
> toward the 36 runways.
>


Elwood Johnson
 

Flew in to OSH 15 times and have used both 90 and 130 kt n directed to all except can’t remember landing 36L. I only rejected one landing instruction in all those years. 

Long-EZ N36EJ my own little F16.
Elwood 'EJ' Johnson

On Jul 15, 2018, at 11:29 PM, DONALD BERLIN vette164@... [canard-aviators] <canard-aviators@...> wrote:

 

It is possible, they put me on 27 last year from 2300 feet!


On Jul 15, 2018, at 9:24 PM, 'Curt Boyll' via COZY Builders Mailing List <cozy_builders@...> wrote:

Flying the 135 kt route at 2,300 ft includes being sent to Runway 36. I believe it is not possible for FISK and the Tower to put you on 9/27 if you fly the 135 kt/2,300 ft approach. (Correct me if I’m wrong about this.)

Keep in mind that even when you fly the 135 kt approach, FISK may still decide to put you behind VERY SLOW traffic, if that’s what they decide is necessary. In 2017, at 2,300 ft and 135 kts, I was not even close to FISK when they said, “Canard, turn right and get behind the two biplanes.” … which they also directed East over Fisk Boulevard and toward the 36 runways. 

I managed to slow down from 135 kts to 75 kts in about 90 seconds, mostly because it did not involve descending at this point. I spoke to one of the biplane pilots the next day, and he confirmed, “Yup, 75 knots is the best we can do."

IMHO, you DO NEED to be able to fly your airplane slowly, if this is required by ATC.

(Warning: Video view rotates 90 degrees to the right at the far end of the runway, halfway through the video. This may be disconcerting.)


Curt Boyll
canards, colorado


On Jul 15, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Steven W. Harmon <sharmon32@...> wrote:


Well I have read the notam several times.   Familiarized myself with all the approaches the 18 lr page 11 seems to be the most complicated landing over runway 9-27.
I am hoping for runway 36 it would be the best no taxing on grass.  I have never come up on a airport at 135 Knts. I always slow down a couple of miles out to 90 to get my gear down.   I hand crank and above 100 knots it is a bear cranking it down.   I will try and get there about 8:00 in the morning Saturday weather permitting I am hoping it will be less crowded.  I know a huge mass flight of some spam cans is supposed to arrive at 11:00 Saturday morning so coming later is a bad idea. See you all in Oshkosh.
Steve build on

Loving life in Idaho  
where living poor on the farm beats being rich in the city