On Dec 23, 2020, at 05:33, michaelagarmon@gmail.com wrote:

Now that I got your attention with that terrible pun, I have started looking at my engine baffling and oil cooler placement. I would like to hear of experience with the following options, good and bad. I have an IO-360 B1E 180 HP engine, so it should be similar to the carbureted versions.
I am considering two different locations for the oil cooler. One is under the engine with the exit through the rear baffles. I like this because it keeps the cowling clean of extra air exits. I am concerned about vibration since it will require mounting direct to the engine.
The second location is in the plans location at the top of the firewall. This has the advantage of inducing an airflow over the accessory case. It has the disadvantage of having an air exit at the top cowl.
I have been studying several web sites and came across Wayne Hick’s website. Wayne you always do a great job explaining your processes and thoughts. I like how the baffles seal off the wing root and direct the air flow, and hence pressure into the cylinders where it is needed. I am somewhat concerned that their is not any flow across the accessory case. I suppose I could use blast air where needed. Anyone with experience with this method?
Thanks

Michael Garmon
Cozy Mk IV
Houston, TX

On Dec 23, 2020, at 15:17, Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:



Jay Skovberg wrote:

Most efficient location is on the aft baffle under the engine. You have a mounting platform right there on the seam of the engine with 3 (5/16”?) treaded holes. Make a base for the oil cooler and bolt it there.

While I certainly have no issue with the cooler being mounted there - many folks have that installation, and it works fine for most of them (I've seen a couple with cooling issues), because it's mounted to the engine it DOES see higher vibration levels than if it were mounted to the airframe instead. Just one consideration. Is it the MOST efficient location? Dunno - has anyone done A:B comparison tests of cooling efficiency and cooling drag with various oil cooler locations? And if so, are those tests generalizable to the population of (in this case) COZY MKIV's, or are they specific to the aircraft on which the testing was performed?

You are never to get any meanimgful airflow up in front of the accessory case.

Well, since there are numerous COZY MKIV's that have the oil cooler mounted in the plans location at the top of the firewall, and they cool the oil just fine, that's just clearly not the case. Possibly there are more optimal locations from a cooling efficiency and drag standpoint, but the claim that you can't cool the oil with a cooler mounted at the top of the firewall is contradicted by existence proofs.

--

Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...

                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/

Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace



Jay Skovberg wrote:

 

Most efficient location is on the aft baffle under the engine. You have a mounting platform right there on the seam of the engine with 3 (5/16”?) treaded holes. Make a base for the oil cooler and bolt it there.

 

While I certainly have no issue with the cooler being mounted there - many folks have that installation, and it works fine for most of them (I've seen a couple with cooling issues), because it's mounted to the engine it DOES see higher vibration levels than if it were mounted to the airframe instead. Just one consideration. Is it the MOST efficient location? Dunno - has anyone done A:B comparison tests of cooling efficiency and cooling drag with various oil cooler locations? And if so, are those tests generalizable to the population of (in this case) COZY MKIV's, or are they specific to the aircraft on which the testing was performed?

 

You are never to get any meanimgful airflow up in front of the accessory case.

 

Well, since there are numerous COZY MKIV's that have the oil cooler mounted in the plans location at the top of the firewall, and they cool the oil just fine, that's just clearly not the case. Possibly there are more optimal locations from a cooling efficiency and drag standpoint, but the claim that you can't cool the oil with a cooler mounted at the top of the firewall is contradicted by existence proofs.

 

--

Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...

                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/

Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace

My Cozy’s IO-360 angle valve has two oil coolers! They are mounted on the underside of the cowl strakes on either side.  Right now I have too much cooling on the cylinders and the oil temp is good in a long Florida climb. I will hit red-line on a long taxi after landing. At Oshkosh I shut down before I made it to my parking space after the long taxi on grass and got help to push it the rest of the way. Also I almost overheated at KJAX waiting to take off behind a bunch of airliners.

 

Terry Shubert flew to help me measure the air flow through my coolers using an altimeter hoses and fish tank filters and the air flow was OK but not great.  I also tried a 12V car radiator fan to help the ground cooling and air deflectors to produce negative pressure on the oil cooler outlets.  I have blocked off one cooler and it definitely needs two for a long climb or otherwise.

 

What I don’t know is if my old used coolers are clogged up and not transferring heat well. It is a hassle to have them tested or expensive to try new ones. 

 

Although my cooler locations look nice and it is a available space that is easy to use I don’t think it is a good location.  I think the best place for airborne cooling would be on the back baffle under the starter and generator which my fuel servo blocks. The top of the cowl above the accessories is probably good for ground cooling and maybe has better negative pressure than under the strakes.

 

I would love to get rid of my second cooler.

 

Del Schier

Cozy IV N197DL

Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL

 

 

From: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io> On Behalf Of skovbjerg
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2020 8:52 PM
To: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
Subject: Re: [c-a] Baffling question

 

Marc,

I should off course have started out with “in my experience” as I moved my oil cooler to the baffle location many years ago so that I could get satisfactory cooling under WOT race conditions.

There may be many Canards out there with sufficient cooling under less demanding circumstances.

One other data point to support my “no flow” claim is that I once somehow got flying with my dip-stick door open. Had my wingman no told me, I would never have known from looking at engine temps. This to me indicates how “dirty” the airflow is up front of the accessory case.

Jay 

On Dec 23, 2020, at 15:17, Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:



Jay Skovberg wrote:

 

Most efficient location is on the aft baffle under the engine. You have a mounting platform right there on the seam of the engine with 3 (5/16”?) treaded holes. Make a base for the oil cooler and bolt it there.

 

While I certainly have no issue with the cooler being mounted there - many folks have that installation, and it works fine for most of them (I've seen a couple with cooling issues), because it's mounted to the engine it DOES see higher vibration levels than if it were mounted to the airframe instead. Just one consideration. Is it the MOST efficient location? Dunno - has anyone done A:B comparison tests of cooling efficiency and cooling drag with various oil cooler locations? And if so, are those tests generalizable to the population of (in this case) COZY MKIV's, or are they specific to the aircraft on which the testing was performed?

 

You are never to get any meanimgful airflow up in front of the accessory case.

 

Well, since there are numerous COZY MKIV's that have the oil cooler mounted in the plans location at the top of the firewall, and they cool the oil just fine, that's just clearly not the case. Possibly there are more optimal locations from a cooling efficiency and drag standpoint, but the claim that you can't cool the oil with a cooler mounted at the top of the firewall is contradicted by existence proofs.

 

--

Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...

                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/

Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace

My Cozy’s IO-360 angle valve has two oil coolers! They are mounted on the underside of the cowl strakes on either side.  Right now I have too much cooling on the cylinders and the oil temp is good in a long Florida climb. I will hit red-line on a long taxi after landing. At Oshkosh I shut down before I made it to my parking space after the long taxi on grass and got help to push it the rest of the way. Also I almost overheated at KJAX waiting to take off behind a bunch of airliners.

 

Terry Shubert flew to help me measure the air flow through my coolers using an altimeter hoses and fish tank filters and the air flow was OK but not great.  I also tried a 12V car radiator fan to help the ground cooling and air deflectors to produce negative pressure on the oil cooler outlets.  I have blocked off one cooler and it definitely needs two for a long climb or otherwise.

 

What I don’t know is if my old used coolers are clogged up and not transferring heat well. It is a hassle to have them tested or expensive to try new ones. 

 

Although my cooler locations look nice and it is a available space that is easy to use I don’t think it is a good location.  I think the best place for airborne cooling would be on the back baffle under the starter and generator which my fuel servo blocks. The top of the cowl above the accessories is probably good for ground cooling and maybe has better negative pressure than under the strakes.

 

I would love to get rid of my second cooler.

 

Del Schier

Cozy IV N197DL

Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL

 

 

From: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io> On Behalf Of skovbjerg
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2020 8:52 PM
To: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
Subject: Re: [c-a] Baffling question

 

Marc,

I should off course have started out with “in my experience” as I moved my oil cooler to the baffle location many years ago so that I could get satisfactory cooling under WOT race conditions.

There may be many Canards out there with sufficient cooling under less demanding circumstances.

One other data point to support my “no flow” claim is that I once somehow got flying with my dip-stick door open. Had my wingman no told me, I would never have known from looking at engine temps. This to me indicates how “dirty” the airflow is up front of the accessory case.

Jay 

On Dec 23, 2020, at 15:17, Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:



Jay Skovberg wrote:

 

Most efficient location is on the aft baffle under the engine. You have a mounting platform right there on the seam of the engine with 3 (5/16”?) treaded holes. Make a base for the oil cooler and bolt it there.

 

While I certainly have no issue with the cooler being mounted there - many folks have that installation, and it works fine for most of them (I've seen a couple with cooling issues), because it's mounted to the engine it DOES see higher vibration levels than if it were mounted to the airframe instead. Just one consideration. Is it the MOST efficient location? Dunno - has anyone done A:B comparison tests of cooling efficiency and cooling drag with various oil cooler locations? And if so, are those tests generalizable to the population of (in this case) COZY MKIV's, or are they specific to the aircraft on which the testing was performed?

 

You are never to get any meanimgful airflow up in front of the accessory case.

 

Well, since there are numerous COZY MKIV's that have the oil cooler mounted in the plans location at the top of the firewall, and they cool the oil just fine, that's just clearly not the case. Possibly there are more optimal locations from a cooling efficiency and drag standpoint, but the claim that you can't cool the oil with a cooler mounted at the top of the firewall is contradicted by existence proofs.

 

--

Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...

                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/

Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace

Thanks Glenn,

 

That would not be too hard to do and probably worth a gallon of acetone. I wonder if you noticed any difference in oil cooling? 

 

I am not sure how to measure if I get better cooling.  I suppose I could take the Dynon data from a taxi takeoff and climb, before and after, keeping  the conditions the same and overlay the graphs of temp/time.  I could just clean the larger of the two coolers and block off the other one and see if the temp goes over the Vernatherm set point.

 

I have read that over time oil coolers varnish up inside making the heat transfer poor. My coolers were not new when my airplane was built and  I don’t know if just acetone would adequately remove the varnish and sludge.  My goal is to get rid of the second cooler; it would make my Cozy lighter, less plumbing and a bit smoother air over the prop.

 

When Terry Shubert helped me test the air flow, if I remember right, we only had enough air to get maybe 60% cooling.  My LongEZ with an 0-235 didn’t even have an oil cooler.

 

Del Schier

Cozy IV N197DL

Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io> On Behalf Of Glenn Charles via groups.io
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2020 12:37 AM
To: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
Subject: Re: [c-a] Baffling question

 

Del,

 

Oil coolers are not too difficult to clean. 

 

Just flush with acetone or brake-clean and you'll be amazed at what comes out.

 

Don't ask me how I know !

 

GM

 

 

On Dec 24, 2020, at 12:12 PM, Del Schier <cozypilot@...> wrote:

My Cozy’s IO-360 angle valve has two oil coolers! They are mounted on the underside of the cowl strakes on either side.  Right now I have too much cooling on the cylinders and the oil temp is good in a long Florida climb. I will hit red-line on a long taxi after landing. At Oshkosh I shut down before I made it to my parking space after the long taxi on grass and got help to push it the rest of the way. Also I almost overheated at KJAX waiting to take off behind a bunch of airliners.

 

Terry Shubert flew to help me measure the air flow through my coolers using an altimeter hoses and fish tank filters and the air flow was OK but not great.  I also tried a 12V car radiator fan to help the ground cooling and air deflectors to produce negative pressure on the oil cooler outlets.  I have blocked off one cooler and it definitely needs two for a long climb or otherwise.

 

What I don’t know is if my old used coolers are clogged up and not transferring heat well. It is a hassle to have them tested or expensive to try new ones. 

 

Although my cooler locations look nice and it is a available space that is easy to use I don’t think it is a good location.  I think the best place for airborne cooling would be on the back baffle under the starter and generator which my fuel servo blocks. The top of the cowl above the accessories is probably good for ground cooling and maybe has better negative pressure than under the strakes.

 

I would love to get rid of my second cooler.

 

Del Schier

Cozy IV N197DL

Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL

 

 

From: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io> On Behalf Of skovbjerg
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2020 8:52 PM
To: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
Subject: Re: [c-a] Baffling question

 

Marc,

I should off course have started out with “in my experience” as I moved my oil cooler to the baffle location many years ago so that I could get satisfactory cooling under WOT race conditions.

There may be many Canards out there with sufficient cooling under less demanding circumstances.

One other data point to support my “no flow” claim is that I once somehow got flying with my dip-stick door open. Had my wingman no told me, I would never have known from looking at engine temps. This to me indicates how “dirty” the airflow is up front of the accessory case.

Jay 

On Dec 23, 2020, at 15:17, Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:



Jay Skovberg wrote:

 

Most efficient location is on the aft baffle under the engine. You have a mounting platform right there on the seam of the engine with 3 (5/16”?) treaded holes. Make a base for the oil cooler and bolt it there.

 

While I certainly have no issue with the cooler being mounted there - many folks have that installation, and it works fine for most of them (I've seen a couple with cooling issues), because it's mounted to the engine it DOES see higher vibration levels than if it were mounted to the airframe instead. Just one consideration. Is it the MOST efficient location? Dunno - has anyone done A:B comparison tests of cooling efficiency and cooling drag with various oil cooler locations? And if so, are those tests generalizable to the population of (in this case) COZY MKIV's, or are they specific to the aircraft on which the testing was performed?

 

You are never to get any meanimgful airflow up in front of the accessory case.

 

Well, since there are numerous COZY MKIV's that have the oil cooler mounted in the plans location at the top of the firewall, and they cool the oil just fine, that's just clearly not the case. Possibly there are more optimal locations from a cooling efficiency and drag standpoint, but the claim that you can't cool the oil with a cooler mounted at the top of the firewall is contradicted by existence proofs.

 

--

Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...

                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/

Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace

My experience with acetone is it does not remove oil and grease as good
as mineral spirits. Varnish may be different though.

Jimmy

On 12/28/2020 8:23 AM, Del Schier wrote:

Thanks Glenn,



That would not be too hard to do and probably worth a gallon of
acetone. I wonder if you noticed any difference in oil cooling?



I am not sure how to measure if I get better cooling. I suppose I
could take the Dynon data from a taxi takeoff and climb, before and
after, keeping the conditions the same and overlay the graphs of
temp/time. I could just clean the larger of the two coolers and block
off the other one and see if the temp goes over the Vernatherm set point.



I have read that over time oil coolers varnish up inside making the
heat transfer poor. My coolers were not new when my airplane was built
and I don’t know if just acetone would adequately remove the varnish
and sludge. My goal is to get rid of the second cooler; it would make
my Cozy lighter, less plumbing and a bit smoother air over the prop.



When Terry Shubert helped me test the air flow, if I remember right,
we only had enough air to get maybe 60% cooling. My LongEZ with an
0-235 didn’t even have an oil cooler.



Del Schier

Cozy IV N197DL

Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL







*From:* canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
<canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Glenn Charles
via groups.io
*Sent:* Monday, December 28, 2020 12:37 AM
*To:* canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [c-a] Baffling question



Del,



Oil coolers are not too difficult to clean.



Just flush with acetone or brake-clean and you'll be amazed at what
comes out.



Don't ask me how I know !



GM






On Dec 24, 2020, at 12:12 PM, Del Schier <cozypilot@comcast.net
<mailto:cozypilot@comcast.net>> wrote:

My Cozy’s IO-360 angle valve has two oil coolers! They are mounted
on the underside of the cowl strakes on either side. Right now I
have too much cooling on the cylinders and the oil temp is good in
a long Florida climb. I will hit red-line on a long taxi after
landing. At Oshkosh I shut down before I made it to my parking
space after the long taxi on grass and got help to push it the
rest of the way. Also I almost overheated at KJAX waiting to take
off behind a bunch of airliners.



Terry Shubert flew to help me measure the air flow through my
coolers using an altimeter hoses and fish tank filters and the air
flow was OK but not great. I also tried a 12V car radiator fan to
help the ground cooling and air deflectors to produce negative
pressure on the oil cooler outlets. I have blocked off one cooler
and it definitely needs two for a long climb or otherwise.



What I don’t know is if my old used coolers are clogged up and not
transferring heat well. It is a hassle to have them tested or
expensive to try new ones.



Although my cooler locations look nice and it is a available space
that is easy to use I don’t think it is a good location. I think
the best place for airborne cooling would be on the back baffle
under the starter and generator which my fuel servo blocks. The
top of the cowl above the accessories is probably good for ground
cooling and maybe has better negative pressure than under the strakes.



I would love to get rid of my second cooler.



Del Schier

Cozy IV N197DL

Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL





*From:* canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
<mailto:canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>
<canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
<mailto:canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
*skovbjerg
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 23, 2020 8:52 PM
*To:* canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
<mailto:canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [c-a] Baffling question



Marc,

I should off course have started out with “in my experience” as I
moved my oil cooler to the baffle location many years ago so that
I could get satisfactory cooling under WOT race conditions.

There may be many Canards out there with sufficient cooling under
less demanding circumstances.

One other data point to support my “no flow” claim is that I once
somehow got flying with my dip-stick door open. Had my wingman no
told me, I would never have known from looking at engine temps.
This to me indicates how “dirty” the airflow is up front of the
accessory case.

Jay




On Dec 23, 2020, at 15:17, Marc J. Zeitlin
<marc.j.zeitlin@gmail.com <mailto:marc.j.zeitlin@gmail.com>>
wrote:



Jay Skovberg wrote:



Most efficient location is on the aft baffle under the
engine. You have a mounting platform right there on the
seam of the engine with 3 (5/16”?) treaded holes. Make a
base for the oil cooler and bolt it there.



While I certainly have no issue with the cooler being mounted
there - many folks have that installation, and it works fine
for most of them (I've seen a couple with cooling issues),
because it's mounted to the engine it DOES see higher
vibration levels than if it were mounted to the airframe
instead. Just one consideration. Is it the MOST efficient
location? Dunno - has anyone done A:B comparison tests of
cooling efficiency and cooling drag with various oil cooler
locations? And if so, are those tests generalizable to the
population of (in this case) COZY MKIV's, or are they specific
to the aircraft on which the testing was performed?



You are never to get any meanimgful airflow up in front of
the accessory case.



Well, since there are numerous COZY MKIV's that have the oil
cooler mounted in the plans location at the top of the
firewall, and they cool the oil just fine, that's just clearly
not the case. Possibly there are more optimal locations from a
cooling efficiency and drag standpoint, but the claim that you
can't cool the oil with a cooler mounted at the top of the
firewall is contradicted by existence proofs.



--

Marc J. Zeitlin <http://www.mdzeitlin.com/Marc/>
marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu
<mailto:marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu>


http://www.cozybuilders.org/

Copyright © 2020 Burnside Aerospace
<http://www.burnsideaerospace.com/>

Kerosene is the best sludge cleaner I come accross

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020, 1:05 PM David A Froble <davef@...> wrote:

Lacquer thinner might do the best job.  Sure beats acetone in removing
old tape.  Perhaps clean, then use a second dose of cleaner and let it
soak for several hours.

I have a can of MEK, but won't try to use it.

:-)

On 12/28/2020 9:48 AM, Jimmy Cox wrote:
> My experience with acetone is it does not remove oil and grease as good
> as mineral spirits.  Varnish may be different though.
>
> Jimmy
>
> On 12/28/2020 8:23 AM, Del Schier wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Glenn,
>>
>>
>>
>> That would not be too hard to do and probably worth a gallon of
>> acetone. I wonder if you noticed any difference in oil cooling?
>>
>>
>>
>> I am not sure how to measure if I get better cooling.  I suppose I
>> could take the Dynon data from a taxi takeoff and climb, before and
>> after, keeping  the conditions the same and overlay the graphs of
>> temp/time.  I could just clean the larger of the two coolers and block
>> off the other one and see if the temp goes over the Vernatherm set point.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have read that over time oil coolers varnish up inside making the
>> heat transfer poor. My coolers were not new when my airplane was built
>> and  I don’t know if just acetone would adequately remove the varnish
>> and sludge.  My goal is to get rid of the second cooler; it would make
>> my Cozy lighter, less plumbing and a bit smoother air over the prop.
>>
>>
>>
>> When Terry Shubert helped me test the air flow, if I remember right,
>> we only had enough air to get maybe 60% cooling.  My LongEZ with an
>> 0-235 didn’t even have an oil cooler.
>>
>>
>>
>> Del Schier
>>
>> Cozy IV N197DL
>>
>> Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
>> <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Glenn Charles
>> via groups.io
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 28, 2020 12:37 AM
>> *To:* canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
>> *Subject:* Re: [c-a] Baffling question
>>
>>
>>
>> Del,
>>
>>
>>
>> Oil coolers are not too difficult to clean.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just flush with acetone or brake-clean and you'll be amazed at what
>> comes out.
>>
>>
>>
>> Don't ask me how I know !
>>
>>
>>
>> GM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 24, 2020, at 12:12 PM, Del Schier <cozypilot@...
>> <mailto:cozypilot@...>> wrote:
>>
>>     My Cozy’s IO-360 angle valve has two oil coolers! They are mounted
>>     on the underside of the cowl strakes on either side.  Right now I
>>     have too much cooling on the cylinders and the oil temp is good in
>>     a long Florida climb. I will hit red-line on a long taxi after
>>     landing. At Oshkosh I shut down before I made it to my parking
>>     space after the long taxi on grass and got help to push it the
>>     rest of the way. Also I almost overheated at KJAX waiting to take
>>     off behind a bunch of airliners.
>>
>>
>>
>>     Terry Shubert flew to help me measure the air flow through my
>>     coolers using an altimeter hoses and fish tank filters and the air
>>     flow was OK but not great.  I also tried a 12V car radiator fan to
>>     help the ground cooling and air deflectors to produce negative
>>     pressure on the oil cooler outlets.  I have blocked off one cooler
>>     and it definitely needs two for a long climb or otherwise.
>>
>>
>>
>>     What I don’t know is if my old used coolers are clogged up and not
>>     transferring heat well. It is a hassle to have them tested or
>>     expensive to try new ones.
>>
>>
>>
>>     Although my cooler locations look nice and it is a available space
>>     that is easy to use I don’t think it is a good location.  I think
>>     the best place for airborne cooling would be on the back baffle
>>     under the starter and generator which my fuel servo blocks. The
>>     top of the cowl above the accessories is probably good for ground
>>     cooling and maybe has better negative pressure than under the strakes.
>>
>>
>>
>>     I would love to get rid of my second cooler.
>>
>>
>>
>>     Del Schier
>>
>>     Cozy IV N197DL
>>
>>     Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     *From:* canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
>>     <mailto:canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>
>>     <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
>>     <mailto:canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>>     *skovbjerg
>>     *Sent:* Wednesday, December 23, 2020 8:52 PM
>>     *To:* canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
>>     <mailto:canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>
>>     *Subject:* Re: [c-a] Baffling question
>>
>>
>>
>>     Marc,
>>
>>     I should off course have started out with “in my experience” as I
>>     moved my oil cooler to the baffle location many years ago so that
>>     I could get satisfactory cooling under WOT race conditions.
>>
>>     There may be many Canards out there with sufficient cooling under
>>     less demanding circumstances.
>>
>>     One other data point to support my “no flow” claim is that I once
>>     somehow got flying with my dip-stick door open. Had my wingman no
>>     told me, I would never have known from looking at engine temps.
>>     This to me indicates how “dirty” the airflow is up front of the
>>     accessory case.
>>
>>     Jay
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         On Dec 23, 2020, at 15:17, Marc J. Zeitlin
>>         <marc.j.zeitlin@... <mailto:marc.j.zeitlin@...>>
>>         wrote:
>>
>>         
>>
>>         Jay Skovberg wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>             Most efficient location is on the aft baffle under the
>>             engine. You have a mounting platform right there on the
>>             seam of the engine with 3 (5/16”?) treaded holes. Make a
>>             base for the oil cooler and bolt it there.
>>
>>
>>
>>         While I certainly have no issue with the cooler being mounted
>>         there - many folks have that installation, and it works fine
>>         for most of them (I've seen a couple with cooling issues),
>>         because it's mounted to the engine it DOES see higher
>>         vibration levels than if it were mounted to the airframe
>>         instead. Just one consideration. Is it the MOST efficient
>>         location? Dunno - has anyone done A:B comparison tests of
>>         cooling efficiency and cooling drag with various oil cooler
>>         locations? And if so, are those tests generalizable to the
>>         population of (in this case) COZY MKIV's, or are they specific
>>         to the aircraft on which the testing was performed?
>>
>>
>>
>>             You are never to get any meanimgful airflow up in front of
>>             the accessory case.
>>
>>
>>
>>         Well, since there are numerous COZY MKIV's that have the oil
>>         cooler mounted in the plans location at the top of the
>>         firewall, and they cool the oil just fine, that's just clearly
>>         not the case. Possibly there are more optimal locations from a
>>         cooling efficiency and drag standpoint, but the claim that you
>>         can't cool the oil with a cooler mounted at the top of the
>>         firewall is contradicted by existence proofs.
>>
>>
>>
>>         --
>>
>>         Marc J. Zeitlin <http://www.mdzeitlin.com/Marc/>
>>                 marc_zeitlin@...
>>         <mailto:marc_zeitlin@...>
>>
>>
>>           http://www.cozybuilders.org/
>>
>>         Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace
>>         <http://www.burnsideaerospace.com/>
>>
>

--
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@...
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA  15486

On Dec 28, 2020, at 3:22 PM, Bob Holliston <bob.holliston@...> wrote:



How about filling the cooler with your liquid of choice, capping the in/outlets and putting it in a paint shaker then flush after? 

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 2:15 PM KEN4ZZ via groups.io <ken4zz=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

When I was rebuilding my Bridgeport I had to scrub off decades of old, dried way oil, shop swarf, and lube.  I rigged up a recirculating flush system using a plastic tub, some hoses, and an inexpensive 12 volt electric diesel fuel pump from the local farm store.  I put a gallon of kerosene in the tub, powered up the pump, and proceeded to put steel wool and elbow grease to work.  It wouldn't be too hard to rig up something similar for an oil cooler.  I wouldn't try this w/ acetone, mineral spirits, or brake cleaner, but kerosene is more or less just highly refined  diesel fuel.  If building a rig like this, I'd suggest putting the intake an inch or so above the bottom of tub/ bucket/ container.  I didn't and the accumulated removed crud eventually killed the pump.

You might try just filling oil cooler w/ a more volatile/ aggressive solvent and then let it soak for a day or two to loosen things up.  You could then safely discard that fluid weapon of choice and follow up w/ the above kerosene flush.

Ken

On 12/28/2020 3:08 PM, Keith Spreuer wrote:

Kerosene is the best sludge cleaner I come accross

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020, 1:05 PM David A Froble <davef@...> wrote:

Lacquer thinner might do the best job.  Sure beats acetone in removing
old tape.  Perhaps clean, then use a second dose of cleaner and let it
soak for several hours.

I have a can of MEK, but won't try to use it.

:-)

On 12/28/2020 9:48 AM, Jimmy Cox wrote:
> My experience with acetone is it does not remove oil and grease as good
> as mineral spirits.  Varnish may be different though.
>
> Jimmy
>
> On 12/28/2020 8:23 AM, Del Schier wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Glenn,
>>
>>
>>
>> That would not be too hard to do and probably worth a gallon of
>> acetone. I wonder if you noticed any difference in oil cooling?
>>
>>
>>
>> I am not sure how to measure if I get better cooling.  I suppose I
>> could take the Dynon data from a taxi takeoff and climb, before and
>> after, keeping  the conditions the same and overlay the graphs of
>> temp/time.  I could just clean the larger of the two coolers and block
>> off the other one and see if the temp goes over the Vernatherm set point.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have read that over time oil coolers varnish up inside making the
>> heat transfer poor. My coolers were not new when my airplane was built
>> and  I don’t know if just acetone would adequately remove the varnish
>> and sludge.  My goal is to get rid of the second cooler; it would make
>> my Cozy lighter, less plumbing and a bit smoother air over the prop.
>>
>>
>>
>> When Terry Shubert helped me test the air flow, if I remember right,
>> we only had enough air to get maybe 60% cooling.  My LongEZ with an
>> 0-235 didn’t even have an oil cooler.
>>
>>
>>
>> Del Schier
>>
>> Cozy IV N197DL
>>
>> Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
>> <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Glenn Charles
>> via groups.io
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 28, 2020 12:37 AM
>> *To:* canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
>> *Subject:* Re: [c-a] Baffling question
>>
>>
>>
>> Del,
>>
>>
>>
>> Oil coolers are not too difficult to clean.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just flush with acetone or brake-clean and you'll be amazed at what
>> comes out.
>>
>>
>>
>> Don't ask me how I know !
>>
>>
>>
>> GM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 24, 2020, at 12:12 PM, Del Schier <cozypilot@...
>> <mailto:cozypilot@...>> wrote:
>>
>>     My Cozy’s IO-360 angle valve has two oil coolers! They are mounted
>>     on the underside of the cowl strakes on either side.  Right now I
>>     have too much cooling on the cylinders and the oil temp is good in
>>     a long Florida climb. I will hit red-line on a long taxi after
>>     landing. At Oshkosh I shut down before I made it to my parking
>>     space after the long taxi on grass and got help to push it the
>>     rest of the way. Also I almost overheated at KJAX waiting to take
>>     off behind a bunch of airliners.
>>
>>
>>
>>     Terry Shubert flew to help me measure the air flow through my
>>     coolers using an altimeter hoses and fish tank filters and the air
>>     flow was OK but not great.  I also tried a 12V car radiator fan to
>>     help the ground cooling and air deflectors to produce negative
>>     pressure on the oil cooler outlets.  I have blocked off one cooler
>>     and it definitely needs two for a long climb or otherwise.
>>
>>
>>
>>     What I don’t know is if my old used coolers are clogged up and not
>>     transferring heat well. It is a hassle to have them tested or
>>     expensive to try new ones.
>>
>>
>>
>>     Although my cooler locations look nice and it is a available space
>>     that is easy to use I don’t think it is a good location.  I think
>>     the best place for airborne cooling would be on the back baffle
>>     under the starter and generator which my fuel servo blocks. The
>>     top of the cowl above the accessories is probably good for ground
>>     cooling and maybe has better negative pressure than under the strakes.
>>
>>
>>
>>     I would love to get rid of my second cooler.
>>
>>
>>
>>     Del Schier
>>
>>     Cozy IV N197DL
>>
>>     Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     *From:* canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
>>     <mailto:canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>
>>     <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
>>     <mailto:canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>>     *skovbjerg
>>     *Sent:* Wednesday, December 23, 2020 8:52 PM
>>     *To:* canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
>>     <mailto:canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>
>>     *Subject:* Re: [c-a] Baffling question
>>
>>
>>
>>     Marc,
>>
>>     I should off course have started out with “in my experience” as I
>>     moved my oil cooler to the baffle location many years ago so that
>>     I could get satisfactory cooling under WOT race conditions.
>>
>>     There may be many Canards out there with sufficient cooling under
>>     less demanding circumstances.
>>
>>     One other data point to support my “no flow” claim is that I once
>>     somehow got flying with my dip-stick door open. Had my wingman no
>>     told me, I would never have known from looking at engine temps.
>>     This to me indicates how “dirty” the airflow is up front of the
>>     accessory case.
>>
>>     Jay
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         On Dec 23, 2020, at 15:17, Marc J. Zeitlin
>>         <marc.j.zeitlin@... <mailto:marc.j.zeitlin@...>>
>>         wrote:
>>
>>         
>>
>>         Jay Skovberg wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>             Most efficient location is on the aft baffle under the
>>             engine. You have a mounting platform right there on the
>>             seam of the engine with 3 (5/16”?) treaded holes. Make a
>>             base for the oil cooler and bolt it there.
>>
>>
>>
>>         While I certainly have no issue with the cooler being mounted
>>         there - many folks have that installation, and it works fine
>>         for most of them (I've seen a couple with cooling issues),
>>         because it's mounted to the engine it DOES see higher
>>         vibration levels than if it were mounted to the airframe
>>         instead. Just one consideration. Is it the MOST efficient
>>         location? Dunno - has anyone done A:B comparison tests of
>>         cooling efficiency and cooling drag with various oil cooler
>>         locations? And if so, are those tests generalizable to the
>>         population of (in this case) COZY MKIV's, or are they specific
>>         to the aircraft on which the testing was performed?
>>
>>
>>
>>             You are never to get any meanimgful airflow up in front of
>>             the accessory case.
>>
>>
>>
>>         Well, since there are numerous COZY MKIV's that have the oil
>>         cooler mounted in the plans location at the top of the
>>         firewall, and they cool the oil just fine, that's just clearly
>>         not the case. Possibly there are more optimal locations from a
>>         cooling efficiency and drag standpoint, but the claim that you
>>         can't cool the oil with a cooler mounted at the top of the
>>         firewall is contradicted by existence proofs.
>>
>>
>>
>>         --
>>
>>         Marc J. Zeitlin <http://www.mdzeitlin.com/Marc/>
>>                 marc_zeitlin@...
>>         <mailto:marc_zeitlin@...>
>>
>>
>>           http://www.cozybuilders.org/
>>
>>         Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace
>>         <http://www.burnsideaerospace.com/>
>>
>

--
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef@...
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA  15486

--

On Dec 24, 2020, at 8:12 AM, Del Schier <cozypilot@...> wrote:



My Cozy’s IO-360 angle valve has two oil coolers! They are mounted on the underside of the cowl strakes on either side.  Right now I have too much cooling on the cylinders and the oil temp is good in a long Florida climb. I will hit red-line on a long taxi after landing. At Oshkosh I shut down before I made it to my parking space after the long taxi on grass and got help to push it the rest of the way. Also I almost overheated at KJAX waiting to take off behind a bunch of airliners.

 

Terry Shubert flew to help me measure the air flow through my coolers using an altimeter hoses and fish tank filters and the air flow was OK but not great.  I also tried a 12V car radiator fan to help the ground cooling and air deflectors to produce negative pressure on the oil cooler outlets.  I have blocked off one cooler and it definitely needs two for a long climb or otherwise.

 

What I don’t know is if my old used coolers are clogged up and not transferring heat well. It is a hassle to have them tested or expensive to try new ones. 

 

Although my cooler locations look nice and it is a available space that is easy to use I don’t think it is a good location.  I think the best place for airborne cooling would be on the back baffle under the starter and generator which my fuel servo blocks. The top of the cowl above the accessories is probably good for ground cooling and maybe has better negative pressure than under the strakes.

 

I would love to get rid of my second cooler.

 

Del Schier

Cozy IV N197DL

Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL

 

 

From: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io> On Behalf Of skovbjerg
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2020 8:52 PM
To: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
Subject: Re: [c-a] Baffling question

 

Marc,

I should off course have started out with “in my experience” as I moved my oil cooler to the baffle location many years ago so that I could get satisfactory cooling under WOT race conditions.

There may be many Canards out there with sufficient cooling under less demanding circumstances.

One other data point to support my “no flow” claim is that I once somehow got flying with my dip-stick door open. Had my wingman no told me, I would never have known from looking at engine temps. This to me indicates how “dirty” the airflow is up front of the accessory case.

Jay 

On Dec 23, 2020, at 15:17, Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:



Jay Skovberg wrote:

 

Most efficient location is on the aft baffle under the engine. You have a mounting platform right there on the seam of the engine with 3 (5/16”?) treaded holes. Make a base for the oil cooler and bolt it there.

 

While I certainly have no issue with the cooler being mounted there - many folks have that installation, and it works fine for most of them (I've seen a couple with cooling issues), because it's mounted to the engine it DOES see higher vibration levels than if it were mounted to the airframe instead. Just one consideration. Is it the MOST efficient location? Dunno - has anyone done A:B comparison tests of cooling efficiency and cooling drag with various oil cooler locations? And if so, are those tests generalizable to the population of (in this case) COZY MKIV's, or are they specific to the aircraft on which the testing was performed?

 

You are never to get any meanimgful airflow up in front of the accessory case.

 

Well, since there are numerous COZY MKIV's that have the oil cooler mounted in the plans location at the top of the firewall, and they cool the oil just fine, that's just clearly not the case. Possibly there are more optimal locations from a cooling efficiency and drag standpoint, but the claim that you can't cool the oil with a cooler mounted at the top of the firewall is contradicted by existence proofs.

 

--

Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...

                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/

Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace