FAA to prohibit instruction in Experimental aircraft


Craig Westwood
 

Interesting stuff coming down the pike.  Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.  I'm hoping this gets resolved, but it will take litigation and time for that to happen.


-- Craig
            (_
|-------==(_)==--------|
          o/ | \o


Marc J. Zeitlin
 

Craig Westwood wrote:

Interesting stuff coming down the pike.  Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.

More difficult - yes. Nearly impossible - no.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2021                     Burnside Aerospace


Dick Knapinski
 

Hi, all:

 

EAA’s take on this situation. We’re aiming to get this resolved as quickly as possible, because of the ramifications we warned about earlier this year during the court case.

 

Best,

Dick

 

 

Dick Knapinski

Director of Communications

EAA 494456

P: 920-426-6523

W: www.EAA.org

 

 

GA groups: FAA flight training policy changes will reduce safety, create administrative logjam

Agency’s interpretation threatens to halt most training in experimental aircraft

EAA AVIATION CENTER, OSHKOSH, Wisconsin — (June 9, 2021) — Federal Aviation Administration policy interpretations on flight training arising out of a recent court decision will have a chilling impact on general aviation safety and create a bureaucratic nightmare for pilots and federal officials, according to numerous GA groups including the Experimental Aircraft Association.

In a letter sent to FAA Administrator Stephen Dickson, the groups called the policy changes “unnecessary and unwarranted guidelines based on irrational legal positions” and called for the FAA to immediately revise the policy to prevent degraded safety in flight training and unnecessary legal battles. The combined groups noted that they are “prepared to use all available means to ensure this situation is corrected as soon as possible.”

“Why the FAA would want to diminish the flight training that made the U.S. aviation system the safest in the world boggles the mind, but that’s what these new policies will do,” said Jack J. Pelton, EAA’s CEO and chairman of the board. “For years, the FAA has correctly stated that training in the specific make and model of aircraft to be routinely operated, with a well-qualified instructor, is the best training. These policies would unnecessarily limit that access and measure of safety.”

The GA groups noted four specific areas where safety would be diminished or bureaucratic backlogs created:

·         Prohibiting owners of experimental aircraft from receiving flight instruction in their own aircraft without specific FAA permission to do so in the form of a Letter of Deviation Authority (LODA): With nearly 40,000 experimental category aircraft on the registry, Flight Standard District Offices would quickly be overwhelmed by applications for a LODA where there is no legal requirement to have one. That creates an additional barrier to aviation safety and is contrary to FAA’s own mission.

·         Prohibiting owners of more than 300 limited category aircraft from receiving flight instruction in their own aircraft with specific FAA permission in the form of an exemption: Never before has the FAA required limited aircraft owners to obtain an exemption to be trained in their own aircraft, nor is there a legal requirement to do so. This change will not further aviation safety.

·         Prohibiting owners of primary category aircraft from receiving flight instruction in their own aircraft without specific FAA permission to do so in the form of an exemption: The FAA does not have policy in place to issue such an exemption and it is unknown how long it would take to issue such exemptions.

·         Limiting access to flight training in a specific make and model of an aircraft: The FAA must issue a policy affirming the pathways that allow owners to obtain training in their own aircraft. To not do so creates an immediate and significant hindrance to flight safety.

The policy grew from a cease-and-desist order from FAA to Warbird Adventures in Kissimmee, Florida, to which a U.S. Court of Appeals issued an unpublished opinion that allowed the order to stand. EAA and other aviation groups filed an amicus brief cautioning the court to narrowly tailor its decision consistent with historic FAA policy preventing compensation for aircraft use in training. That would stop negative consequences on a wide range of flight instruction activities provided to owners in their own aircraft.

“What the FAA has done here is exactly the negative effects we in the GA community had warned about when we filed the amicus brief, regardless of the particulars of that specific case,” Pelton said. “The agency has not only created great confusion in the flight training community, it has countered its own mission that emphasizes safety. It’s important that the FAA revisit this immediately and not enforce any new policies until this is resolved.”

About EAA

The Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA) is based in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, and embodies The Spirit of Aviation through the world’s most engaged community of aviation enthusiasts. EAA’s 240,000 members and 900 local chapters enjoy the fun and camaraderie of sharing their passion for flying, building and restoring recreational aircraft. For more information on EAA and its programs, call 800-JOIN-EAA (800-564-6322) or go to www.eaa.org. For continual news updates, connect with www.twitter.com/EAA.

-30-

 

From: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io> On Behalf Of Craig Westwood via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2021 3:05 PM
To: Canard Aviators <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>; cozylist <cozy_builders@...>
Subject: [c-a] FAA to prohibit instruction in Experimental aircraft

 

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of EAA. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

Interesting stuff coming down the pike.  Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.  I'm hoping this gets resolved, but it will take litigation and time for that to happen.

 

 

-- Craig

            (_
|-------==(_)==--------|
          o/ | \o


Ryszard Zadow
 


<Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.>

Actually, that statement has almost always been true because it's always been illegal to provide dual instruction in any aircraft that did not comply with  FAR 91.109:

(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft (except a manned free balloon) that is being used for flight instruction unless that aircraft has fully functioning dual controls. 

What really drove this home to me was when I was contacted by an insurance broker wanting to know if I knew of any CFI's in his area that could help his client that just bought a LongEZ get the 10 hours dual the Underwriter was requiring. I told him I did not and asked how any CFI would accomplish that considering FAR 91-109. Later the insurance company RAFE works with pointed out that anyone that did acquire their "dual" from a CFI riding in the backseat of their LongEZ could, if a claim came up, be denied that claim simply on the criteria that their required dual was not legally given. 

To my knowledge, with the exception of three LongEZ"s and no Variez'es, every other one does not meet the criteria of FAR 91-109. (This obviously does not apply to Cozy's)  Yet I way too often hear people say things like "I had a CFI ride with me to get the dual my insurance company required." To that I would ask, how did that CFI comply with FAR 91-109? Typically I got a blank stare. 

This is why what the Rutan Aircraft Flying Experience has created with its Canard Flight Academy is so important. 


RAFE has the worlds ONLY two seat, tandem pusher canard that is STANDARD CATEGORY and FAR 91-109 compliant. Lately we've had several Pilots come through our program because their insurer required it. We've been working with the insurance industry to get our program recognized. They have a better understanding of how our training reduces risk, is legal and it has gotten people better rates. 

Don't take this as a shameless plug  for our training program, just food for thought. Even if this new FAA perspective comes to pass, there is still FAR 91-109 to comply with. 

Ryszard 
Pres. RAFE> 

On Thursday, June 10, 2021, 03:05:31 PM CDT, Craig Westwood <craig.westwood@...> wrote:


Interesting stuff coming down the pike.  Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.  I'm hoping this gets resolved, but it will take litigation and time for that to happen.


-- Craig
            (_
|-------==(_)==--------|
          o/ | \o


Tom Stichman
 

I did exactly that and RAFE and Rick Finny did an outstanding job in the SpeedCanard before I flew the Brown Bomber solo. 
Tom Stichman
N29TM


On Jun 10, 2021, at 16:01, Ryszard Zadow <ryszardzadow@...> wrote:



<Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.>

Actually, that statement has almost always been true because it's always been illegal to provide dual instruction in any aircraft that did not comply with  FAR 91.109:

(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft (except a manned free balloon) that is being used for flight instruction unless that aircraft has fully functioning dual controls. 

What really drove this home to me was when I was contacted by an insurance broker wanting to know if I knew of any CFI's in his area that could help his client that just bought a LongEZ get the 10 hours dual the Underwriter was requiring. I told him I did not and asked how any CFI would accomplish that considering FAR 91-109. Later the insurance company RAFE works with pointed out that anyone that did acquire their "dual" from a CFI riding in the backseat of their LongEZ could, if a claim came up, be denied that claim simply on the criteria that their required dual was not legally given. 

To my knowledge, with the exception of three LongEZ"s and no Variez'es, every other one does not meet the criteria of FAR 91-109. (This obviously does not apply to Cozy's)  Yet I way too often hear people say things like "I had a CFI ride with me to get the dual my insurance company required." To that I would ask, how did that CFI comply with FAR 91-109? Typically I got a blank stare. 

This is why what the Rutan Aircraft Flying Experience has created with its Canard Flight Academy is so important. 


RAFE has the worlds ONLY two seat, tandem pusher canard that is STANDARD CATEGORY and FAR 91-109 compliant. Lately we've had several Pilots come through our program because their insurer required it. We've been working with the insurance industry to get our program recognized. They have a better understanding of how our training reduces risk, is legal and it has gotten people better rates. 

Don't take this as a shameless plug  for our training program, just food for thought. Even if this new FAA perspective comes to pass, there is still FAR 91-109 to comply with. 

Ryszard 
Pres. RAFE> 
On Thursday, June 10, 2021, 03:05:31 PM CDT, Craig Westwood <craig.westwood@...> wrote:


Interesting stuff coming down the pike.  Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.  I'm hoping this gets resolved, but it will take litigation and time for that to happen.


-- Craig
            (_
|-------==(_)==--------|
          o/ | \o


ray vancleave
 

The FED is printing money fist over tea kettle.  Money POORS into Government.  And regulators go hog wild.  Empires get built, government employee roles swell, and regulators/regulation explodes while egos go batshit.  If you have been involved for 70 years or so then this isn't the first time you have seen this rodeo. Be prepared to watch the free market "ne'er-do-wells" "vent" on those who got hired.  It will get much worse.  You don't think so?  Just ask 'em.  


On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 1:39 PM Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:
Craig Westwood wrote:

Interesting stuff coming down the pike.  Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.

More difficult - yes. Nearly impossible - no.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2021                     Burnside Aerospace


S Remerez
 

The Fed's creed:  if it ain't broke, fix it.


June 11, 2021 1:43:22 AM CEST ray vancleave <rdvancleave@...> wrote:

The FED is printing money fist over tea kettle.  Money POORS into Government.  And regulators go hog wild.  Empires get built, government employee roles swell, and regulators/regulation explodes while egos go batshit.  If you have been involved for 70 years or so then this isn't the first time you have seen this rodeo. Be prepared to watch the free market "ne'er-do-wells" "vent" on those who got hired.  It will get much worse.  You don't think so?  Just ask 'em.  

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 1:39 PM Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:
Craig Westwood wrote:

Interesting stuff coming down the pike.  Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.

More difficult - yes. Nearly impossible - no.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2021                     Burnside Aerospace


Bill Allen
 

The old FAA mission statement trope being proved to be well earned; “We’re not happy ‘till you’re not happy”
No bureaucrat ever enhanced their job security by saying “leave things alone- there are enough rules as it is”

Bill Allen

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 04:28, S Remerez via groups.io <sremerez=mailfence.com@groups.io> wrote:
The Fed's creed:  if it ain't broke, fix it.


June 11, 2021 1:43:22 AM CEST ray vancleave <rdvancleave@...> wrote:
The FED is printing money fist over tea kettle.  Money POORS into Government.  And regulators go hog wild.  Empires get built, government employee roles swell, and regulators/regulation explodes while egos go batshit.  If you have been involved for 70 years or so then this isn't the first time you have seen this rodeo. Be prepared to watch the free market "ne'er-do-wells" "vent" on those who got hired.  It will get much worse.  You don't think so?  Just ask 'em.  

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 1:39 PM Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:
Craig Westwood wrote:

Interesting stuff coming down the pike.  Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.

More difficult - yes. Nearly impossible - no.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2021                     Burnside Aerospace

--


Tony Rothwell
 

Yeah, and then there are lawyers.
Shakespeare had that right!


On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 16:44, Bill Allen <billallensworld@...> wrote:
The old FAA mission statement trope being proved to be well earned; “We’re not happy ‘till you’re not happy”
No bureaucrat ever enhanced their job security by saying “leave things alone- there are enough rules as it is”

Bill Allen

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 04:28, S Remerez via groups.io <sremerez=mailfence.com@groups.io> wrote:
The Fed's creed:  if it ain't broke, fix it.


June 11, 2021 1:43:22 AM CEST ray vancleave <rdvancleave@...> wrote:
The FED is printing money fist over tea kettle.  Money POORS into Government.  And regulators go hog wild.  Empires get built, government employee roles swell, and regulators/regulation explodes while egos go batshit.  If you have been involved for 70 years or so then this isn't the first time you have seen this rodeo. Be prepared to watch the free market "ne'er-do-wells" "vent" on those who got hired.  It will get much worse.  You don't think so?  Just ask 'em.  

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 1:39 PM Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:
Craig Westwood wrote:

Interesting stuff coming down the pike.  Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.

More difficult - yes. Nearly impossible - no.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2021                     Burnside Aerospace

--


S Remerez
 

Another famous one: "Hi, I'm from the government, and I'm here to help."

When I first heard that one, I died laughing.  Now I'm just dying.


June 11, 2021 8:44:01 AM CEST Bill Allen <billallensworld@...> wrote:

The old FAA mission statement trope being proved to be well earned; “We’re not happy ‘till you’re not happy”
No bureaucrat ever enhanced their job security by saying “leave things alone- there are enough rules as it is”

Bill Allen

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 04:28, S Remerez via groups.io <sremerez=mailfence.com@groups.io> wrote:
The Fed's creed:  if it ain't broke, fix it.


June 11, 2021 1:43:22 AM CEST ray vancleave <rdvancleave@...> wrote:
The FED is printing money fist over tea kettle.  Money POORS into Government.  And regulators go hog wild.  Empires get built, government employee roles swell, and regulators/regulation explodes while egos go batshit.  If you have been involved for 70 years or so then this isn't the first time you have seen this rodeo. Be prepared to watch the free market "ne'er-do-wells" "vent" on those who got hired.  It will get much worse.  You don't think so?  Just ask 'em.  

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 1:39 PM Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:
Craig Westwood wrote:

Interesting stuff coming down the pike.  Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.

More difficult - yes. Nearly impossible - no.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2021                     Burnside Aerospace

--


Del Schier
 

I know we aren’t supposed to talk politics here but the FAA recently made new regulations for UASs (drones).  It is 170,090 words!  The stupid thing is not .01% of the billions of people that have purchased a drone even know there are any regulations! There is nothing required with the packaging of a drone to tell people there even are regulations.  You would think they would have sellers and manufacturers to put something in or on the box at least telling them to stay out of the path of a manned aircraft.  If I am reading it right my several dozen model airplanes will need to be registered and have the equivalent of an ADS B transponder.

 

Have you ever done your taxes right? I doubt I have; I haven’t read the 2,412,000 words 😊

 

Del Schier

Cozy IV N197DL

Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL

 

 

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2021 2:44 AM
To: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
Subject: Re: [c-a] FAA to prohibit instruction in Experimental aircraft

 

The old FAA mission statement trope being proved to be well earned; “We’re not happy ‘till you’re not happy”

No bureaucrat ever enhanced their job security by saying “leave things alone- there are enough rules as it is”

 

Bill Allen

 

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 04:28, S Remerez via groups.io <sremerez=mailfence.com@groups.io> wrote:

The Fed's creed:  if it ain't broke, fix it.

 

June 11, 2021 1:43:22 AM CEST ray vancleave <rdvancleave@...> wrote:

The FED is printing money fist over tea kettle.  Money POORS into Government.  And regulators go hog wild.  Empires get built, government employee roles swell, and regulators/regulation explodes while egos go batshit.  If you have been involved for 70 years or so then this isn't the first time you have seen this rodeo. Be prepared to watch the free market "ne'er-do-wells" "vent" on those who got hired.  It will get much worse.  You don't think so?  Just ask 'em.  

 

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 1:39 PM Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:

Craig Westwood wrote:

 

Interesting stuff coming down the pike.  Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.

 

More difficult - yes. Nearly impossible - no.

 

--

Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...

                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/

Copyright © 2021                     Burnside Aerospace

--


Bulent Aliev
 

Del,
“In the name of Public Safety” is the first cry of the rule makers (AKA more Job Security)

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 7:50 AM Del Schier <cozypilot@...> wrote:

I know we aren’t supposed to talk politics here but the FAA recently made new regulations for UASs (drones).  It is 170,090 words!  The stupid thing is not .01% of the billions of people that have purchased a drone even know there are any regulations! There is nothing required with the packaging of a drone to tell people there even are regulations.  You would think they would have sellers and manufacturers to put something in or on the box at least telling them to stay out of the path of a manned aircraft.  If I am reading it right my several dozen model airplanes will need to be registered and have the equivalent of an ADS B transponder.

 

Have you ever done your taxes right? I doubt I have; I haven’t read the 2,412,000 words 😊

 

Del Schier

Cozy IV N197DL

Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL

 

 

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2021 2:44 AM
To: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
Subject: Re: [c-a] FAA to prohibit instruction in Experimental aircraft

 

The old FAA mission statement trope being proved to be well earned; “We’re not happy ‘till you’re not happy”

No bureaucrat ever enhanced their job security by saying “leave things alone- there are enough rules as it is”

 

Bill Allen

 

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 04:28, S Remerez via groups.io <sremerez=mailfence.com@groups.io> wrote:

The Fed's creed:  if it ain't broke, fix it.

 

June 11, 2021 1:43:22 AM CEST ray vancleave <rdvancleave@...> wrote:

The FED is printing money fist over tea kettle.  Money POORS into Government.  And regulators go hog wild.  Empires get built, government employee roles swell, and regulators/regulation explodes while egos go batshit.  If you have been involved for 70 years or so then this isn't the first time you have seen this rodeo. Be prepared to watch the free market "ne'er-do-wells" "vent" on those who got hired.  It will get much worse.  You don't think so?  Just ask 'em.  

 

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 1:39 PM Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:

Craig Westwood wrote:

 

Interesting stuff coming down the pike.  Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.

 

More difficult - yes. Nearly impossible - no.

 

--

Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...

                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/

Copyright © 2021                     Burnside Aerospace

--

--
Bulent Aliev
Enginegear
ph +1 954.557.1019
fax +1 386.957.4473
Bulent@...
www.enginegearonline.com


Steven Oakley
 

I too have flown model aircraft since I was 10, and to my knowledge even now with the growth of consumer drones still no fatalities, OK not having a fatality is no reason for not legislating safety measures, but the drone regulations do not add much safety, but what they do is open the skys so that drones can be used for deliveries, which in my honest opinion in most cases is not needed.

Anyhow back to the subject of this, changing your ability to get instruction in Experimental craft is going to do nothing towards safety, in fact its either going to promote people breaking the rules or flying without proper instruction/time in type and risk more accidents.

Hopefully bodies like the EAA can focus on this and get it revised or removed.

DSteve.

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 5:19 AM Bulent Aliev <bulent.enginegear@...> wrote:
Del,
“In the name of Public Safety” is the first cry of the rule makers (AKA more Job Security)

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 7:50 AM Del Schier <cozypilot@...> wrote:

I know we aren’t supposed to talk politics here but the FAA recently made new regulations for UASs (drones).  It is 170,090 words!  The stupid thing is not .01% of the billions of people that have purchased a drone even know there are any regulations! There is nothing required with the packaging of a drone to tell people there even are regulations.  You would think they would have sellers and manufacturers to put something in or on the box at least telling them to stay out of the path of a manned aircraft.  If I am reading it right my several dozen model airplanes will need to be registered and have the equivalent of an ADS B transponder.

 

Have you ever done your taxes right? I doubt I have; I haven’t read the 2,412,000 words 😊

 

Del Schier

Cozy IV N197DL

Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL

 

 

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2021 2:44 AM
To: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
Subject: Re: [c-a] FAA to prohibit instruction in Experimental aircraft

 

The old FAA mission statement trope being proved to be well earned; “We’re not happy ‘till you’re not happy”

No bureaucrat ever enhanced their job security by saying “leave things alone- there are enough rules as it is”

 

Bill Allen

 

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 04:28, S Remerez via groups.io <sremerez=mailfence.com@groups.io> wrote:

The Fed's creed:  if it ain't broke, fix it.

 

June 11, 2021 1:43:22 AM CEST ray vancleave <rdvancleave@...> wrote:

The FED is printing money fist over tea kettle.  Money POORS into Government.  And regulators go hog wild.  Empires get built, government employee roles swell, and regulators/regulation explodes while egos go batshit.  If you have been involved for 70 years or so then this isn't the first time you have seen this rodeo. Be prepared to watch the free market "ne'er-do-wells" "vent" on those who got hired.  It will get much worse.  You don't think so?  Just ask 'em.  

 

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 1:39 PM Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:

Craig Westwood wrote:

 

Interesting stuff coming down the pike.  Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.

 

More difficult - yes. Nearly impossible - no.

 

--

Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...

                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/

Copyright © 2021                     Burnside Aerospace

--

--
Bulent Aliev
Enginegear
ph +1 954.557.1019
fax +1 386.957.4473
Bulent@...
www.enginegearonline.com


Charles McDougal
 

Once again the FAA distinguishes itself; Like a drunken, blinded giant with a huge club, staggering around by the edge of a cliff. You can’t even trust it to act in its own best interest. “Close enough for government work”, is not only a phrase we use in carpentry. It’s the mantra of the FAA. 
C


On Jun 12, 2021, at 9:08 AM, Steven Oakley <steve@...> wrote:


I too have flown model aircraft since I was 10, and to my knowledge even now with the growth of consumer drones still no fatalities, OK not having a fatality is no reason for not legislating safety measures, but the drone regulations do not add much safety, but what they do is open the skys so that drones can be used for deliveries, which in my honest opinion in most cases is not needed.

Anyhow back to the subject of this, changing your ability to get instruction in Experimental craft is going to do nothing towards safety, in fact its either going to promote people breaking the rules or flying without proper instruction/time in type and risk more accidents.

Hopefully bodies like the EAA can focus on this and get it revised or removed.

DSteve.

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 5:19 AM Bulent Aliev <bulent.enginegear@...> wrote:
Del,
“In the name of Public Safety” is the first cry of the rule makers (AKA more Job Security)

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 7:50 AM Del Schier <cozypilot@...> wrote:

I know we aren’t supposed to talk politics here but the FAA recently made new regulations for UASs (drones).  It is 170,090 words!  The stupid thing is not .01% of the billions of people that have purchased a drone even know there are any regulations! There is nothing required with the packaging of a drone to tell people there even are regulations.  You would think they would have sellers and manufacturers to put something in or on the box at least telling them to stay out of the path of a manned aircraft.  If I am reading it right my several dozen model airplanes will need to be registered and have the equivalent of an ADS B transponder.

 

Have you ever done your taxes right? I doubt I have; I haven’t read the 2,412,000 words 😊

 

Del Schier

Cozy IV N197DL

Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL

 

 

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2021 2:44 AM
To: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
Subject: Re: [c-a] FAA to prohibit instruction in Experimental aircraft

 

The old FAA mission statement trope being proved to be well earned; “We’re not happy ‘till you’re not happy”

No bureaucrat ever enhanced their job security by saying “leave things alone- there are enough rules as it is”

 

Bill Allen

 

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 04:28, S Remerez via groups.io <sremerez=mailfence.com@groups.io> wrote:

The Fed's creed:  if it ain't broke, fix it.

 

June 11, 2021 1:43:22 AM CEST ray vancleave <rdvancleave@...> wrote:

The FED is printing money fist over tea kettle.  Money POORS into Government.  And regulators go hog wild.  Empires get built, government employee roles swell, and regulators/regulation explodes while egos go batshit.  If you have been involved for 70 years or so then this isn't the first time you have seen this rodeo. Be prepared to watch the free market "ne'er-do-wells" "vent" on those who got hired.  It will get much worse.  You don't think so?  Just ask 'em.  

 

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 1:39 PM Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:

Craig Westwood wrote:

 

Interesting stuff coming down the pike.  Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.

 

More difficult - yes. Nearly impossible - no.

 

--

Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...

                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/

Copyright © 2021                     Burnside Aerospace

--

--
Bulent Aliev
Enginegear
ph +1 954.557.1019
fax +1 386.957.4473
Bulent@...
www.enginegearonline.com


David A Froble
 

While it's fun to bash the FAA, perhaps walk a mile in their shoes.

Yes, and I'll bash them a bit. It appears all of this comes out of the "old military aircraft for thrill seekers", and the propensity in the good old USA "if something goes wrong, reach for a lawyer. Don't even have to reach sometimes, they seem to follow the ambulances. Perhaps the FAA should have had something covering that, so it would not be "training for hire", or whatever loophole was used.

So some judge, certainly not a pilot, issues some ruling, and the FAA has no choice, they have to react. Of course, the reaction will usually be a poor choice, but that's what you get from government.

As for training, the biggest issue I read about was an insurance company looking for loopholes to avoid a payout. Pretty sucky action.

Now training in some aircraft has many issues. Are there qualified instructors for some aircraft? Good chance there are not. I'm betting there are quite a few who are not qualified, or even capable, of being PIC in a Long EZ. A prudent person will seek qualified help, regardless of FAA licenses. If money is an issue, well, do what you must, to get what you need.

On 6/12/2021 12:36 PM, Charles McDougal wrote:
Once again the FAA distinguishes itself; Like a drunken, blinded giant
with a huge club, staggering around by the edge of a cliff. You can’t
even trust it to act in its own best interest. “Close enough for
government work”, is not only a phrase we use in carpentry. It’s the
mantra of the FAA.
C


On Jun 12, 2021, at 9:08 AM, Steven Oakley <steve@oakley-s.com> wrote:


I too have flown model aircraft since I was 10, and to my
knowledge even now with the growth of consumer drones still no
fatalities, OK not having a fatality is no reason for not
legislating safety measures, but the drone regulations do not add much
safety, but what they do is open the skys so that drones can be used
for deliveries, which in my honest opinion in most cases is not needed.

Anyhow back to the subject of this, changing your ability to get
instruction in Experimental craft is going to do nothing towards
safety, in fact its either going to promote people breaking the rules
or flying without proper instruction/time in type and risk more accidents.

Hopefully bodies like the EAA can focus on this and get it revised or
removed.

DSteve.

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 5:19 AM Bulent Aliev
<bulent.enginegear@gmail.com <mailto:bulent.enginegear@gmail.com>> wrote:

Del,
“In the name of Public Safety” is the first cry of the rule makers
(AKA more Job Security)

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 7:50 AM Del Schier <cozypilot@comcast.net
<mailto:cozypilot@comcast.net>> wrote:

I know we aren’t supposed to talk politics here but the FAA
recently made new regulations for UASs (drones). It is
170,090 words! The stupid thing is not .01% of the billions
of people that have purchased a drone even know there are any
regulations! There is nothing required with the packaging of a
drone to tell people there even are regulations. You would
think they would have sellers and manufacturers to put
something in or on the box at least telling them to stay out
of the path of a manned aircraft. If I am reading it right my
several dozen model airplanes will need to be registered and
have the equivalent of an ADS B transponder.____

__ __

Have you ever done your taxes right? I doubt I have; I haven’t
read the 2,412,000 words 😊____

__ __

Del Schier____

Cozy IV N197DL____

Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL____

__ __

__ __

__ __

__ __

__ __

*From:* canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
<mailto:canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>
<canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
<mailto:canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
*Bill Allen
*Sent:* Friday, June 11, 2021 2:44 AM
*To:* canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
<mailto:canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [c-a] FAA to prohibit instruction in
Experimental aircraft____

__ __

The old FAA mission statement trope being proved to be well
earned; “We’re not happy ‘till you’re not happy”____

No bureaucrat ever enhanced their job security by saying
“leave things alone- there are enough rules as it is”____

__ __

Bill Allen____

__ __

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 04:28, S Remerez via groups.io
<http://groups.io> <sremerez=mailfence.com@groups.io
<mailto:mailfence.com@groups.io>> wrote:____

The Fed's creed: if it ain't broke, fix it.____

__ __

June 11, 2021 1:43:22 AM CEST ray vancleave
<rdvancleave@gmail.com <mailto:rdvancleave@gmail.com>>
wrote:____

The FED is printing money fist over tea kettle. Money
POORS into Government. And regulators go hog wild.
Empires get built, government employee roles swell,
and regulators/regulation explodes while egos go
batshit. If you have been involved for 70 years or so
then this isn't the first time you have seen this
rodeo. Be prepared to watch the free market
"ne'er-do-wells" "vent" on those who got hired. It
will get much worse. You don't think so? Just ask
'em. ____

__ __

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 1:39 PM Marc J. Zeitlin
<marc.j.zeitlin@gmail.com
<mailto:marc.j.zeitlin@gmail.com>> wrote:____

Craig Westwood wrote:____

__ __

Interesting stuff coming down the pike. Going
to make it nearly impossible to get time in
type before flying your own airplane.____

__ __

More difficult - yes. Nearly impossible - no.____

__ __

-- ____

Marc J. Zeitlin <http://www.mdzeitlin.com/Marc/>
marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu
<mailto:marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu>____


http://www.cozybuilders.org/____

Copyright © 2021 Burnside
Aerospace <http://www.burnsideaerospace.com/>____

-- ____

__

--
Bulent Aliev
Enginegear
ph +1 954.557.1019
fax +1 386.957.4473
Bulent@enginegearonline.com <mailto:Bulent@enginegearonline.com>
www.enginegearonline.com <http://www.enginegearonline.com>
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486


Charles McDougal
 

David - I’m not bashing the FAA, just pointing out that the agency is often ill-informed, ineffective, short sighted, and can’t be trusted to do the right thing. I don’t think these facts are in serious dispute. Add to these qualities the fact that trusting an FAA inspector or the agency in general may cause serious negative consequences, and I think my analogy is pretty accurate. I know that we all know “good people” who work for the agency. I also have communicated with very high level ex-FAA managers who after many years of trying to do their jobs well, have quit in disgust at the indifference and lack of understanding they have witnessed in the highest levels of the agency.
Cheers Canardians!
Fly safe
CM

On Jun 12, 2021, at 4:08 PM, David A Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:

While it's fun to bash the FAA, perhaps walk a mile in their shoes.

Yes, and I'll bash them a bit. It appears all of this comes out of the "old military aircraft for thrill seekers", and the propensity in the good old USA "if something goes wrong, reach for a lawyer. Don't even have to reach sometimes, they seem to follow the ambulances. Perhaps the FAA should have had something covering that, so it would not be "training for hire", or whatever loophole was used.

So some judge, certainly not a pilot, issues some ruling, and the FAA has no choice, they have to react. Of course, the reaction will usually be a poor choice, but that's what you get from government.

As for training, the biggest issue I read about was an insurance company looking for loopholes to avoid a payout. Pretty sucky action.

Now training in some aircraft has many issues. Are there qualified instructors for some aircraft? Good chance there are not. I'm betting there are quite a few who are not qualified, or even capable, of being PIC in a Long EZ. A prudent person will seek qualified help, regardless of FAA licenses. If money is an issue, well, do what you must, to get what you need.



On 6/12/2021 12:36 PM, Charles McDougal wrote:
Once again the FAA distinguishes itself; Like a drunken, blinded giant
with a huge club, staggering around by the edge of a cliff. You can’t
even trust it to act in its own best interest. “Close enough for
government work”, is not only a phrase we use in carpentry. It’s the
mantra of the FAA.
C


On Jun 12, 2021, at 9:08 AM, Steven Oakley <steve@oakley-s.com> wrote:

I too have flown model aircraft since I was 10, and to my
knowledge even now with the growth of consumer drones still no
fatalities, OK not having a fatality is no reason for not
legislating safety measures, but the drone regulations do not add much
safety, but what they do is open the skys so that drones can be used
for deliveries, which in my honest opinion in most cases is not needed.

Anyhow back to the subject of this, changing your ability to get
instruction in Experimental craft is going to do nothing towards
safety, in fact its either going to promote people breaking the rules
or flying without proper instruction/time in type and risk more accidents.

Hopefully bodies like the EAA can focus on this and get it revised or
removed.

DSteve.

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 5:19 AM Bulent Aliev
<bulent.enginegear@gmail.com <mailto:bulent.enginegear@gmail.com>> wrote:

Del,
“In the name of Public Safety” is the first cry of the rule makers
(AKA more Job Security)

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 7:50 AM Del Schier <cozypilot@comcast.net
<mailto:cozypilot@comcast.net>> wrote:

I know we aren’t supposed to talk politics here but the FAA
recently made new regulations for UASs (drones). It is
170,090 words! The stupid thing is not .01% of the billions
of people that have purchased a drone even know there are any
regulations! There is nothing required with the packaging of a
drone to tell people there even are regulations. You would
think they would have sellers and manufacturers to put
something in or on the box at least telling them to stay out
of the path of a manned aircraft. If I am reading it right my
several dozen model airplanes will need to be registered and
have the equivalent of an ADS B transponder.____

__ __

Have you ever done your taxes right? I doubt I have; I haven’t
read the 2,412,000 words 😊____

__ __

Del Schier____

Cozy IV N197DL____

Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL____

__ __

__ __

__ __

__ __

__ __

*From:* canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
<mailto:canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>
<canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
<mailto:canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
*Bill Allen
*Sent:* Friday, June 11, 2021 2:44 AM
*To:* canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
<mailto:canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [c-a] FAA to prohibit instruction in
Experimental aircraft____

__ __

The old FAA mission statement trope being proved to be well
earned; “We’re not happy ‘till you’re not happy”____

No bureaucrat ever enhanced their job security by saying
“leave things alone- there are enough rules as it is”____

__ __

Bill Allen____

__ __

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 04:28, S Remerez via groups.io
<http://groups.io> <sremerez=mailfence.com@groups.io
<mailto:mailfence.com@groups.io>> wrote:____

The Fed's creed: if it ain't broke, fix it.____

__ __

June 11, 2021 1:43:22 AM CEST ray vancleave
<rdvancleave@gmail.com <mailto:rdvancleave@gmail.com>>
wrote:____

The FED is printing money fist over tea kettle. Money
POORS into Government. And regulators go hog wild.
Empires get built, government employee roles swell,
and regulators/regulation explodes while egos go
batshit. If you have been involved for 70 years or so
then this isn't the first time you have seen this
rodeo. Be prepared to watch the free market
"ne'er-do-wells" "vent" on those who got hired. It
will get much worse. You don't think so? Just ask
'em. ____

__ __

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 1:39 PM Marc J. Zeitlin
<marc.j.zeitlin@gmail.com
<mailto:marc.j.zeitlin@gmail.com>> wrote:____

Craig Westwood wrote:____

__ __

Interesting stuff coming down the pike. Going
to make it nearly impossible to get time in
type before flying your own airplane.____

__ __

More difficult - yes. Nearly impossible - no.____

__ __

-- ____

Marc J. Zeitlin <http://www.mdzeitlin.com/Marc/>
marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu
<mailto:marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu>____


http://www.cozybuilders.org/____

Copyright © 2021 Burnside
Aerospace <http://www.burnsideaerospace.com/>____

-- ____

__

--
Bulent Aliev
Enginegear
ph +1 954.557.1019
fax +1 386.957.4473
Bulent@enginegearonline.com <mailto:Bulent@enginegearonline.com>
www.enginegearonline.com <http://www.enginegearonline.com>
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486





Greg Norman
 

It will...
Warning! The surgeon general has determined that this UAV is hazardous to your health.

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:50 AM Del Schier <cozypilot@...> wrote:

I know we aren’t supposed to talk politics here but the FAA recently made new regulations for UASs (drones).  It is 170,090 words!  The stupid thing is not .01% of the billions of people that have purchased a drone even know there are any regulations! There is nothing required with the packaging of a drone to tell people there even are regulations.  You would think they would have sellers and manufacturers to put something in or on the box at least telling them to stay out of the path of a manned aircraft.  If I am reading it right my several dozen model airplanes will need to be registered and have the equivalent of an ADS B transponder.

 

Have you ever done your taxes right? I doubt I have; I haven’t read the 2,412,000 words 😊

 

Del Schier

Cozy IV N197DL

Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL

 

 

 

 

 

From: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2021 2:44 AM
To: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
Subject: Re: [c-a] FAA to prohibit instruction in Experimental aircraft

 

The old FAA mission statement trope being proved to be well earned; “We’re not happy ‘till you’re not happy”

No bureaucrat ever enhanced their job security by saying “leave things alone- there are enough rules as it is”

 

Bill Allen

 

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 at 04:28, S Remerez via groups.io <sremerez=mailfence.com@groups.io> wrote:

The Fed's creed:  if it ain't broke, fix it.

 

June 11, 2021 1:43:22 AM CEST ray vancleave <rdvancleave@...> wrote:

The FED is printing money fist over tea kettle.  Money POORS into Government.  And regulators go hog wild.  Empires get built, government employee roles swell, and regulators/regulation explodes while egos go batshit.  If you have been involved for 70 years or so then this isn't the first time you have seen this rodeo. Be prepared to watch the free market "ne'er-do-wells" "vent" on those who got hired.  It will get much worse.  You don't think so?  Just ask 'em.  

 

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 1:39 PM Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:

Craig Westwood wrote:

 

Interesting stuff coming down the pike.  Going to make it nearly impossible to get time in type before flying your own airplane.

 

More difficult - yes. Nearly impossible - no.

 

--

Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...

                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/

Copyright © 2021                     Burnside Aerospace

--