Topics

IFR Certifiacation For Homebuilt


Timothy Freeze
 

I'm putting the finishing touches on a Cozy III and should have my airworthiness inspection in a few weeks. I want the IFR certification so what do I have to do? Is it just get the pitot static test and transponder check? And should this be done prior to the airworthiness inspection?

Thanks in advance...tim
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N27EZ@...
 

In a message dated 2/19/01 4:18:12 PM, TERRY200TY@... writes:

<< The only issue is if there is a desire to fly IFR using GPS. >>

In my experience with 2 approach certified GPS's in my defiant, there is no
approval procedure for experimentals. My first one a Allied Signal 89b a FAA
official wanted to put me back into the 25 mile radius test flight circle for
25 hours, because THAT WAS THE ONLY APPROVAL PROCEDURE AVAILABLE FOR
EXPERIMENTALS. This had nothing to do with whether the 25 hours had any
effect on the performance of the unit. This was cleared up by a friend in the
FAA who simple wrote a letter approving the installation. On the second
installation, I simply told the avionics shop that I would take care of the
approval. I made a log entry in the log book, and that was finished. Am I
legal? Duh.... the unit keeps getting me to the ground and I back it up with
the "approved" unit. Sometimes, it is not possible to dot all the "i" and
cross all the "t" . At some point after yo have made some efforts, just make
sure you are safe, and go fly. John Steichen n27ez


teamez@...
 

Tim,

Actually, IFR certification is up to the discretion of the local FSDO. Each
one has a fair degree of lattitude, so you had best check with your local
group. For instance, if you want an IFR approval for a GPS, there is special
paperwork to be completed and submitted to the Seattle FSDo, but I know that
Atlanta doesn't require it.

BTW, the Seattle checks are mostly for the EMI problem I spoke about in the
posts last week about VOR problems.

Tom Staggs
EAA Flight Advisor
Long-EZ N13YV

******************


Terry Yake <TERRY200TY@...>
 

Timothy Freeze wrote:

I'm putting the finishing touches on a Cozy III and should have my
airworthiness inspection in a few weeks. I want the IFR certification so
what do I have to do? Is it just get the pitot static test and transponder
check? And should this be done prior to the airworthiness inspection?

Thanks in advance...tim
Tim,

If the plane is equipped to fly IFR, then just do it. You need the transponder and pitot system checked every 2 years anyway (or, at least the xpdr).

The only issue is if there is a desire to fly IFR using GPS. Then, as the manufacturer you can do that too. But as a precaution, I had the FSDO come out and look it over.


Regards,

Terry


Dale Martin <niceez@...>
 

Tim,
Not necessary to do this now...... Only before your ready to fly it IFR
which will be somewhere at the end of your test period. Just make sure you
type into your "Testing Phase" the need to fly IFR approaches to insure the
Instruments required for IFR flight perform safely and accurately. You will
not require a second crewmember to do this as it should be done in VFR
conditions so you can verify your positions on the O, M, I makers and
glideslope for approach. The checkouts of the Altimeter, Transponder and
pitot static system should be done by you and a qualified avionics shop and
entered in your aircraft logbook....
Go fly your plane and get familiar with it and then once everything performs
to VFR spec's...... Then work on the IFR stuff. 40 hours goes really slow.
:^))

Dale Martin... LEZ 777DJ
Lewiston, Idaho

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Freeze" <s35pilot@...>
To: <canard-aviators@...>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 12:16 PM
Subject: [canard-aviators] IFR Certifiacation For Homebuilt


I'm putting the finishing touches on a Cozy III and should have my
airworthiness inspection in a few weeks. I want the IFR certification so
what do I have to do? Is it just get the pitot static test and
transponder
check? And should this be done prior to the airworthiness inspection?

Thanks in advance...tim
_________________________________________________________________
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ulf3@...
 

Does anyone know if the primary flight instruments need to be TSO'd to
register/fly a homebuilt
for IFR? and a corrollary question are TSO'd instruments generally
"worth" the cost
difference?

I am getting ready to purchase my instruments and need to decide how to
spend all this money. Specifically, I am comparing electric RC Allen
Gyros to Wultrad (about $1,400
more for the pair for the RC Allen), also Altimeter, VSI, A/S Indicator
typically seem to run about $600 more
for the three TSO'd units vs. non TSO'd. Wing levelers are even greater
price difference (e.g. S-Tec System 20
vs. Navaid).

Thanks in advance,

Ulrich


On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:53:47 -0600 Terry Yake <TERRY200TY@...>
writes:
Timothy Freeze wrote:

I'm putting the finishing touches on a Cozy III and should have
my
airworthiness inspection in a few weeks. I want the IFR
certification so
what do I have to do? Is it just get the pitot static test and
transponder
check? And should this be done prior to the airworthiness
inspection?

Thanks in advance...tim
Tim,

If the plane is equipped to fly IFR, then just do it. You need the
transponder and pitot system checked every 2 years anyway (or, at
least the xpdr).

The only issue is if there is a desire to fly IFR using GPS. Then,
as the manufacturer you can do that too. But as a precaution, I had
the FSDO come out and look it over.


Regards,

Terry




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Paul Krasa
 


If the plane is equipped to fly IFR, then just do it. You need the transponder and pitot system checked every 2 years anyway (or, at least the xpdr).
UT OH!! I would check my limitations issued with the airplane when it was inspected. My specifically limit the airplane to Day/Night VFR, and if I want to fly IFR, I have to get it inspected again, and have a the limitation removed. The key here is to read the operating limitations which were issued with the airplane.

Paul
Long EZ 214LP


Dale Martin <niceez@...>
 

In the US the answer is yes..... Further, the companies are sure they will
operate normally during real weather. There is a difference between TSO'd
(tested) and VFR instruments. Your installation must also be along the same
lines.

Dale Martin... LEZ 777DJ
Lewiston, Idaho

----- Original Message -----
From: <ulf3@...>
To: <canard-aviators@...>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 8:52 PM
Subject: [c-a] Re: [canard-aviators] IFR Certifiacation For Homebuilt


Does anyone know if the primary flight instruments need to be TSO'd to
register/fly a homebuilt
for IFR? and a corrollary question are TSO'd instruments generally
"worth" the cost
difference?


hornetball@...
 

Actually, no, there is no requirement that instruments be TSO'd.

All that Part 91 requires is that the required instruments be "in operable condition." For our purpose, the instruments that are needed are specified in 91.205. There are some specific types of instruments (i.e., transponders, altitude encoders, TCAS, TAWS) that must meet TSO requirements (even these don't necessarily have to be TSO'd, but practically speaking, a manufacturer shows that it meets TSO requirements by getting TSO authorization).

Basic flight instruments are not among the instruments that must meet TSO requirements.

TSO authorization just provides an alternate method for manufacturers to certify equipment. Most avionics manufacturers find the TSO method more convenient and less costly that other certification methods.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In the US the answer is yes..... Further, the companies are sure they will operate normally during real weather. There is a difference between TSO'd (tested) and VFR instruments. Your installation must also be along the same lines.

Dale Martin... LEZ 777DJ
Lewiston, Idaho

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

----- Original Message -----
From: <ulf3@...
Subject: [c-a] Re: [canard-aviators] IFR Certifiacation For Homebuilt


Does anyone know if the primary flight instruments need to be TSO'd to register/fly a homebuilt for IFR? and a corrollary question are TSO'd instruments generally "worth" the cost difference?


Tom Smith
 

Bill
You cannot use a portable GPS for a primary navigation in IFR, only as a
reference instrument in IFR. Must be panel permeant and TSO'ed for IFR. The
IFR approved units usually cost and I say usually cost around $2500 and up.
They have more warning systems and lights to warn of a posable failure of the
unit to the pilot during operation.
Tom


hornetball@...
 

In a message dated 2/20/01 5:37:39 PM Central Standard Time,
chiliwilly58@... writes:


Terry:
Are you saying that an Experimental airplane which I built and have
installed a Lorance portable GPS - is 14CFR compliant? and can be used for
IFR.?

The nonsense about who built the plane and the Lowrance GPS aside, if: (1)
an experimental amateur-built aircraft has the equipment required for IFR
flight listed in FAR 91.205 (with current inspections and VOR checks); and
(2) IFR flight is allowed by its Operating Limitations, then (duh) it can be
used for IFR.


Bill Ingram <chiliwilly58@...>
 

Terry:
Are you saying that an Experimental airplane which I built and have installed a Lorance portable GPS - is 14CFR compliant? and can be used for IFR.?

Bill
EZE #75


From: Terry Yake <TERRY200TY@...
Subject: Re: [canard-aviators] IFR Certifiacation For Homebuilt

Timothy Freeze wrote:

I'm putting the finishing touches on a Cozy III and should have my airworthiness inspection in a few weeks. I want the IFR certification so what do I have to do? Is it just get the pitot static test and transponder check? And should this be done prior to the airworthiness inspection?

Thanks in advance...tim

Tim,

If the plane is equipped to fly IFR, then just do it. You need the transponder and pitot system checked every 2 years anyway (or, at least the xpdr).

The only issue is if there is a desire to fly IFR using GPS. Then, as the manufacturer you can do that too. But as a precaution, I had the FSDO come out and look it over.


Regards,

Terry


Dan & Jill Patch <dpatch1@...>
 

All,

Paul has this right. Check your operating limitations. If it says VFR then
IFR is a no-no. If it doesn't say VFR only, then IFR is OK. providing that
you have all the required IFR instrumentation and that all the standard
FAR's stating IFR requirements for operability, etc. are met.

When I first flew my VariEze (19 years ago, Wow! how time flies!) I had the
plane as light as possible, per Rutan's instructions. After I got
comfortable in the plane I added the alternator, vacuum pump, gyros, wheel
pants, etc. during the test period (40 hours). I suggest that the Rutan
"go-light" philosophy has merit for initial testing.

My personal limit was 100 hours in type prior to any IFR operation. Your
mileage may vary. After I had a 100 hours I requested a new list of
operating limitations with the Day/VFR limitation be removed. After a brief
quiz on what IFR instrumentation was required, and a quick inspection to
verify that I had same installed, a new set of operating limitations was
issued without the Day/VFR limitation, and I was good to go.

Dan
VariEze N862DP


.....If the plane is equipped to fly IFR, then just do it. You need the
transponder and pitot system checked every 2 years anyway (or, at least
the xpdr).

Paul wrote:

UH OH!! I would check my limitations issued with the airplane when it was
inspected. My specifically limit the airplane to Day/Night VFR, and if I
want to fly IFR, I have to get it inspected again, and have a the
limitation removed. The key here is to read the operating limitations
which were issued with the airplane.

Paul
Long EZ 214LP


N27EZ@...
 

A portable GPS can effectively be used as secondary navigation enroute as
long as there is a back up vor system that you can default to if necessary.
THIS IS JUST AS EFFECTIVE AS A PANEL MOUNT IFR ENROUTE SYSTEM. Most
controllers will give you a heading vector well over the horizon. In the real
world the hand held system will give you 95% of what the panel mount
ENROUTE system gives you. Having said that, I have two panel mount certified
systems in my Defiant. They just plain work better are easier to program,
easier to interpet, with the added benifits of terminal and approach
capabilities. If you are going IFR, these approach capabilities make a lot of
music. JOhn Steichen n27ez


Terry Yake <TERRY200TY@...>
 

Bill Ingram wrote:

Terry:
Are you saying that an Experimental airplane which I built and have
installed a Lorance portable GPS - is 14CFR compliant? and can be used for
IFR.?

Bill
EZE #75

From: Terry Yake <TERRY200TY@...
Subject: Re: [canard-aviators] IFR Certifiacation For Homebuilt

Timothy Freeze wrote:

I'm putting the finishing touches on a Cozy III and should have my airworthiness inspection in a few weeks. I want the IFR certification so what do I have to do? Is it just get the pitot static test and transponder check? And should this be done prior to the airworthiness inspection?

Thanks in advance...tim

Tim,

If the plane is equipped to fly IFR, then just do it. You need the transponder and pitot system checked every 2 years anyway (or, at least the xpdr).

The only issue is if there is a desire to fly IFR using GPS. Then, as the manufacturer you can do that too. But as a precaution, I had the FSDO come out and look it over.

Regards,

Terry


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
canard-aviators-unsubscribe@...
Bill,

No. There are those FAR's you must comply with first. Portable GPS's have never been certifiable for IFR.

Adding a little more detail ----- If your plane, the pilot, and the avionics/installation meet the requirements of the applicable FAR's for the type of flying you intend to perform, then you can do it in an experimental aircraft.

Just read the regs.

Regards,

Terry


teamez@...
 

Terry,

As my old Grampa used to say: don't argue with idiots; other people can't
tell the difference....

-Tom (3 weeks and counting down.....)


Tom Smith
 

Hello all

AOPA puts out a "Safety Advisor" Technology No.1. This covers everything you
wanted to know and more about GPS for use in the IFR environment.

IFR-approved receivers are governed by TSO C129.

Receivers approved for en route and terminal operations only are called
"A2" receivers while those approved for non-precision approaches are known as
"A1" receivers.

A2 receivers must have these common features, as required by the TSO:

1. Updateable database
2. Fixes in database can't be manually altered
3. One-second position update
4. Manual waypoint insertion to .1 minute lat/lon or .1 mile
5. Pilot selectable CDI sensitivity, .1 mile minimum
6. RAIM integrity alarms

A1 Receivers must have these features, in addition to those listed in the A2
section.

1. All approach fixes in database, for nonprecision approaches, SIDs,STARs
2. Approach fixes stored in order of flight, can't be manually altered
3. IAF selectable by the pilot
4. Approach arming within 30 miles of airport
5. Path between fixes defined as TO-TO roue
6. Receiver must autosequence approach fixes until MAP
7. Manual interruption of autosequencing for holds and procedure turns
8. Turn anticipation for approach fixes
9. Barometric input for RAIM function
10. Annunciators to indicate approach enabled, approach active, reminder for
baro setting, change of CDI sensitivity
11. Linear CDI scaling 1 mile to .3 mile for approach
12. Single pilot action to go from present position to any waypoint
13. Approach-level RAIM (10 second alarm)
14. Predictive RAIM (+/- 15 minutes of ETA at destination)
15. Hard flagging for approach when RAIM alarm is active.

Also an A2 or A1 box must be IFR-certifed for the aircraft in which it is
installed. The aircraft flight manual should have a brief supplemental
section describing the GPS system, and the logbooks should have the
appropriate endorsements.


Ronnie Brown <rolandbrown@...>
 

I'd like to add a couple of comments to this from my experience in
installing an Apollo SL60 in our Cessna 172.

The A2 boxes are should be seriously considered for the following reasons:
1. Lower purchase and installation costs than the A1 boxes.
2. gets you to all of the initial fixes for LOC, VOR and ILS approaches as
well as the missed approach points
3. replaces DME and ADF where called for in non NDB approaches.
4. In a pinch can be used (illegally - albeit a whole hell of a lot more
accurately) in lieu of a ADF to make an NDB approach (the FAA rarely ever
checks to see what you have on board when you land at those little bitty
airports.)
5. The CDI/Annunciator panel is NOT required if all of the alarms and
indication is available on the GPS.
6. Database updates are not mandated every 28 days like most of the A2
boxes. (we update ours every 6 months and review the Jepp plate changes for
airports that we normally use between updates).
7. Qualifies as a /G on the equipment list

Also, try to get as much latitude as possible on the data base update
frequency. This is contained in the Flight Manual Supplement that you
generate using the equipment supplier's draft as a guide. Use some words
that allow the pilot to determine if the installed GPS database is suitable
for the intended flight (instead of words that only allow IFR flight if the
database is current)

Ronnie Brown

----- Original Message -----
From: <TRCSmith@...>
To: <canard-aviators@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 11:41 PM
Subject: [c-a] Re: [canard-aviators] IFR Certifiacation For Homebuilt


Hello all

AOPA puts out a "Safety Advisor" Technology No.1. This covers everything
you
wanted to know and more about GPS for use in the IFR environment.

IFR-approved receivers are governed by TSO C129.

Receivers approved for en route and terminal operations only are
called
"A2" receivers while those approved for non-precision approaches are known
as
"A1" receivers.

A2 receivers must have these common features, as required by the TSO:

1. Updateable database
2. Fixes in database can't be manually altered
3. One-second position update
4. Manual waypoint insertion to .1 minute lat/lon or .1 mile
5. Pilot selectable CDI sensitivity, .1 mile minimum
6. RAIM integrity alarms

A1 Receivers must have these features, in addition to those listed in the
A2
section.

1. All approach fixes in database, for nonprecision approaches, SIDs,STARs
2. Approach fixes stored in order of flight, can't be manually altered
3. IAF selectable by the pilot
4. Approach arming within 30 miles of airport
5. Path between fixes defined as TO-TO roue
6. Receiver must autosequence approach fixes until MAP
7. Manual interruption of autosequencing for holds and procedure turns
8. Turn anticipation for approach fixes
9. Barometric input for RAIM function
10. Annunciators to indicate approach enabled, approach active, reminder
for
baro setting, change of CDI sensitivity
11. Linear CDI scaling 1 mile to .3 mile for approach
12. Single pilot action to go from present position to any waypoint
13. Approach-level RAIM (10 second alarm)
14. Predictive RAIM (+/- 15 minutes of ETA at destination)
15. Hard flagging for approach when RAIM alarm is active.

Also an A2 or A1 box must be IFR-certifed for the aircraft in which it is
installed. The aircraft flight manual should have a brief supplemental
section describing the GPS system, and the logbooks should have the
appropriate endorsements.



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