Topics

Starting batteries


longezn911gg
 

Group,
I need to replace my battery, since our plane has been flying starting in 2001 I have replaced the battery twice both have been gelcell wheelchair style batteries, the first one I must have got 15 years out of it with 2 complete discharges on it ( master left on).
I couldn’t find that exact one as they didn’t make them anymore. So I tried another brand and it didn’t last that long.
So my question is: what brands have you been running and performances you are getting?

Thanks

Craig Gearhart
Longez


Neil K
 

Odyssey PC680. First one lasted 12 years With multiple full discharges from leaving the master on (cuz I’m getting old or something) and is still on my bench as a backup. Lots of life left in it.

And this in a typical Canadian climate.

Neil K.

On May 18, 2020, at 10:54 AM, longezn911gg via groups.io <longezn911gg=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Group,
I need to replace my battery, since our plane has been flying starting in 2001 I have replaced the battery twice both have been gelcell wheelchair style batteries, the first one I must have got 15 years out of it with 2 complete discharges on it ( master left on).
I couldn’t find that exact one as they didn’t make them anymore. So I tried another brand and it didn’t last that long.
So my question is: what brands have you been running and performances you are getting?

Thanks

Craig Gearhart
Longez



DON JONES
 

Craig, it would be hard to do better than an Odyssey, they seem to last forever and they have a good selection of sizes.

Don Jones
Berkut FG

On Monday, May 18, 2020, 11:15:01 AM EDT, Neil K <neil.kruiswyk@...> wrote:


Odyssey PC680. First one lasted 12 years With multiple full discharges from leaving the master on (cuz I’m getting old or something)  and is still on my bench as a backup. Lots of life left in it.

And this in a typical Canadian climate.

Neil K.


> On May 18, 2020, at 10:54 AM, longezn911gg via groups.io <longezn911gg=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
>
> Group,
> I need to replace my battery, since our plane has been flying starting in 2001 I have replaced the battery twice both have been gelcell wheelchair style batteries, the first one I must have got 15 years out of it with 2 complete discharges on it ( master left on).
> I couldn’t find that exact one as they didn’t make them anymore. So I tried another brand and it didn’t last that long.
> So my question is: what brands have you been running and performances you are getting?
>
> Thanks
>
> Craig Gearhart
> Longez
>
>
>



Harley Dixon
 

I agree the PC680 is what I've been using...I settled on it because of the praise I've seen from others here on the list who have used it. 

Harley

On 5/18/2020 11:14 AM, Neil K wrote:
Odyssey PC680. First one lasted 12 years With multiple full discharges from leaving the master on (cuz I’m getting old or something)  and is still on my bench as a backup. Lots of life left in it. 

And this in a typical Canadian climate. 

Neil K.


On May 18, 2020, at 10:54 AM, longezn911gg via groups.io <longezn911gg@...> wrote:

Group,
I need to replace my battery, since our plane has been flying starting in 2001 I have replaced the battery twice both have been gelcell wheelchair style batteries, the first one I must have got 15 years out of it with 2 complete discharges on it ( master left on).
I couldn’t find that exact one as they didn’t make them anymore. So I tried another brand and it didn’t last that long.
So my question is: what brands have you been running and performances you are getting?

Thanks 

Craig Gearhart
Longez








Virus-free. www.avg.com


aviationeyes
 

As another data point, I use the Odyssey PC625 battery. Slightly better specs than the PC680, but the slightly shorter length (fit) is the real benefit in my standard nose Long EZ.
--Jose


On Mon, May 18, 2020, at 11:34 AM, Harley  Dixon wrote:
I agree the PC680 is what I've been using...I settled on it because of the praise I've seen from others here on the list who have used it. 

Harley


On 5/18/2020 11:14 AM, Neil K wrote:
Odyssey PC680. First one lasted 12 years With multiple full discharges from leaving the master on (cuz I’m getting old or something)  and is still on my bench as a backup. Lots of life left in it. 

And this in a typical Canadian climate. 

Neil K.



On May 18, 2020, at 10:54 AM, longezn911gg via groups.io <longezn911gg@...> wrote:

Group,
I need to replace my battery, since our plane has been flying starting in 2001 I have replaced the battery twice both have been gelcell wheelchair style batteries, the first one I must have got 15 years out of it with 2 complete discharges on it ( master left on).
I couldn’t find that exact one as they didn’t make them anymore. So I tried another brand and it didn’t last that long.
So my question is: what brands have you been running and performances you are getting?

Thanks 

Craig Gearhart
Longez








Virus-free. www.avg.com


-- 
  



Tristan Vincent-Philpot
 

I recently installed an EarthX ETX680c to replace the heavy old Concord RG-35AXC. 4 lbs instead of 30 lbs. Better starting and doesn’t drain when unused at all. I will probably invest in another one when I go full dual electric systems later.

Tristan

On May 18, 2020, at 12:21 PM, aviationeyes <skyeyecorp@...> wrote:

As another data point, I use the Odyssey PC625 battery. Slightly better specs than the PC680, but the slightly shorter length (fit) is the real benefit in my standard nose Long EZ.
--Jose


On Mon, May 18, 2020, at 11:34 AM, Harley  Dixon wrote:
I agree the PC680 is what I've been using...I settled on it because of the praise I've seen from others here on the list who have used it.  

Harley


On 5/18/2020 11:14 AM, Neil K wrote:
Odyssey PC680. First one lasted 12 years With multiple full discharges from leaving the master on (cuz I’m getting old or something)  and is still on my bench as a backup. Lots of life left in it. 

And this in a typical Canadian climate. 

Neil K.



On May 18, 2020, at 10:54 AM, longezn911gg via groups.io <longezn911gg@...> wrote:

Group,
I need to replace my battery, since our plane has been flying starting in 2001 I have replaced the battery twice both have been gelcell wheelchair style batteries, the first one I must have got 15 years out of it with 2 complete discharges on it ( master left on).
I couldn’t find that exact one as they didn’t make them anymore. So I tried another brand and it didn’t last that long.
So my question is: what brands have you been running and performances you are getting?

Thanks 

Craig Gearhart
Longez








Virus-free. www.avg.com


-- 
  




Del Schier
 

My Cozy is on its 3rd Odyssey PC925. The other two didn't die, I murdered them. Always someone talking to me while I am trying to park the airplane. One of these days I will wire the gear motor always on so I don't have to turn on the master.

Del Schier
Cozy IV N197DL
Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL

-----Original Message-----
From: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io> On Behalf Of longezn911gg via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 10:55 AM
To: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
Subject: [c-a] Starting batteries

Group,
I need to replace my battery, since our plane has been flying starting in 2001 I have replaced the battery twice both have been gelcell wheelchair style batteries, the first one I must have got 15 years out of it with 2 complete discharges on it ( master left on).
I couldn’t find that exact one as they didn’t make them anymore. So I tried another brand and it didn’t last that long.
So my question is: what brands have you been running and performances you are getting?

Thanks

Craig Gearhart
Longez


 

I have been using the EarthX products in all of my aircraft and all of the ones I have built for customers for 3 years, and since they havent been around much longer than that, hard to compete with the Oydessy on time lasted.  I can tell you that they contain a battery management system that will not let you kill it.  Drained them til the BMS shut it down many times during the build testing stuff and never a problem.  Company is awesome too.  Great customer service.
And, they weigh 1/10 of a lead battery!!!!
Ross

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 8:54 AM longezn911gg via groups.io <longezn911gg=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Group,
I need to replace my battery, since our plane has been flying starting in 2001 I have replaced the battery twice both have been gelcell wheelchair style batteries, the first one I must have got 15 years out of it with 2 complete discharges on it ( master left on).
I couldn’t find that exact one as they didn’t make them anymore. So I tried another brand and it didn’t last that long.
So my question is: what brands have you been running and performances you are getting?

Thanks

Craig Gearhart
Longez





--
Thank You!
Ross Burk
307-277-4642 cell


Steve Rothert
 

I have used Powersonic batteries in my Long-Ez.  There is about a 12-15 ft run of #2 cable from the battery in the nose to the starter in the rear. Never had a starting issue and the batteries last for me about 8+ years. I bought a small float charger from Powersonic which I keep connected all the time.

Be careful of any Lithium Ion battery.  There is a video "on the net" somewhere, where an individual was using one as the main battery in the plane.  It caught fire!!!

Do your due diligence.

Steve


Roch LaRocca
 

3 years ago I installed an  EarthX ETX 900 .   Have no complaints and no regrets!!!
R LaRocca
ERacer N382RB

On May 18, 2020, at 8:36 PM, Ross Burk <apogee.design@...> wrote:


I have been using the EarthX products in all of my aircraft and all of the ones I have built for customers for 3 years, and since they havent been around much longer than that, hard to compete with the Oydessy on time lasted.  I can tell you that they contain a battery management system that will not let you kill it.  Drained them til the BMS shut it down many times during the build testing stuff and never a problem.  Company is awesome too.  Great customer service.
And, they weigh 1/10 of a lead battery!!!!
Ross

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 8:54 AM longezn911gg via groups.io <longezn911gg=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Group,
I need to replace my battery, since our plane has been flying starting in 2001 I have replaced the battery twice both have been gelcell wheelchair style batteries, the first one I must have got 15 years out of it with 2 complete discharges on it ( master left on).
I couldn’t find that exact one as they didn’t make them anymore. So I tried another brand and it didn’t last that long.
So my question is: what brands have you been running and performances you are getting?

Thanks

Craig Gearhart
Longez





--
Thank You!
Ross Burk
307-277-4642 cell


A R Goldman
 

A couple of things that bother me about the Earth-Ex

1.   their management system specifies a spcific maximum alternator amp that is acceptable
I have a 100A alternator and would have to downsize it. My ignition, injection, pumps  etc etc are totally electrical so I like not having to use max alternator capacity, if required. (that may not be a  problem even at a lower charge max)

2.   more important than the first, for me, is the discharge characteristic. My understanding is that these batteries will produce close to the rated voltage and when they get to a specific point in effect disconnect rather than the characteristic of a lead acid battery slowly decreasing voltage. I am aware that a specific low voltage all of my electricals will stop or start to throw errors, but in the case of an unseen alternator failure (remote) there will a lead acid will show a decreasing voltage as it is keeping me suspended above earth where the lithium battery will hum merrily along and then stop!

The third (of two-- or number C) is that the specs for actual discharge of the lithium batteries vs Lead-acid seems to be somewhat confusing as a amp to amp discharge over time without charging is not directly stated.

I wold really want use the LI, because of weight, but these things tend to make me volt against it, for my application.

Any thoughts?

Rich



In a message dated 5/22/2020 4:37:01 PM Central Standard Time, rocbar@... writes:

3 years ago I installed an  EarthX ETX 900 .   Have no complaints and no regrets!!!
R LaRocca
ERacer N382RB

On May 18, 2020, at 8:36 PM, Ross Burk <apogee.design@...> wrote:

I have been using the EarthX products in all of my aircraft and all of the ones I have built for customers for 3 years, and since they havent been around much longer than that, hard to compete with the Oydessy on time lasted.  I can tell you that they contain a battery management system that will not let you kill it.  Drained them til the BMS shut it down many times during the build testing stuff and never a problem.  Company is awesome too.  Great customer service.
And, they weigh 1/10 of a lead battery!!!!
Ross

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 8:54 AM longezn911gg via groups.io <longezn911gg=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Group,
I need to replace my battery, since our plane has been flying starting in 2001 I have replaced the battery twice both have been gelcell wheelchair style batteries, the first one I must have got 15 years out of it with 2 complete discharges on it ( master left on).
I couldn’t find that exact one as they didn’t make them anymore. So I tried another brand and it didn’t last that long.
So my question is: what brands have you been running and performances you are getting?

Thanks

Craig Gearhart
Longez





--
Thank You!
Ross Burk
307-277-4642 cell


Marc J. Zeitlin
 

Rich Goldman wrote:
 
1.   their management system specifies a spcific maximum alternator amp that is acceptable. I have a 100A alternator and would have to downsize it.

Assuming you're not using electric de-ice on your Aerocanard, to what end do you think that you need 100A of alternator capacity, even if you stick to the recommendation never to use more than 80% of your alternator output for constant loads (not landing gear, landing brake, etc., but IP instruments, lights, etc.)?

I have a completely electric airplane, with a reasonably full panel and electric pretty much everything. I'm pretty sure that when everything is on and running, I pull around 30 - 40A, and thats with Xenon strobe and Nav lights, as well as incandescent landing lights. I cannot imagine
 
My ignition, injection, pumps  etc etc are totally electrical so I like not having to use max alternator capacity, if required. (that may not be a  problem even at a lower charge max)

See above. Ignitions are about 3 - 5A each (and you only have two), and fuel pumps are about the same. EFI is on the same order as well, so you're possibly talking 20A to keep the engine running, and maybe another 15A for the IP, and 10A for lights assuming you use LED's. So 45A max. continuous. You don't need a factor of 2X on a single alternator.

I have a dual bus system, with a 60A alternator on one and a 40A alternator on the other, but these feed two batteries. I only have the 60A because that's what I've had for 18 years and it's working fine - a 2nd 40A would be more than adequate, and each of these alternators charges an ETX-680C EarthX battery, as well as run 1/2 the plane, with the capacity to run the whole plane if one of the anternators went TU.

I'd argue that a single 100A alternator is the issue here, not the batteries.

2.   more important than the first, for me, is the discharge characteristic. My understanding is that these batteries will produce close to the rated voltage and when they get to a specific point in effect disconnect...

That's pretty much correct - when they get to about 5% of their capacity, they'll shut off to protect themselves.
 
rather than the characteristic of a lead acid battery slowly decreasing voltage. I am aware that a specific low voltage all of my electricals will stop or start to throw errors, but in the case of an unseen alternator failure (remote)...

Assuming you're using and engine monitoring system correctly, it's not possible (if you're paying any attention whatsoever to the warning/failure signals from the EMS) to have an "unseen" alternator failure. When your bus voltage drops below the regulator voltage (in my case, 14.2V) you know that your alternator is off-line. The battery when fully charged will sit at about 13.1 - 13.3V, so you've got more than enough margin from the regulator voltage to the battery voltage to know clearly that you've had an alternator failure.

As a backup to that, I have ammeters indicating current into and out of the batteries. When a battery is fully charged and the alternator is working, I see -1A to +1A. When the battery has just been used to start the engine, I'll see 30 - 50A into the battery for about a minute or two, decreasing to 5A and then the standard range within 5 minutes. If I ever see more than -2A flowing OUT of the battery, I also know that the alternator is off-line. So, no such thing as "unseen" alternator failures, particularly since the EFIS/EMS yells in the headset as well as throwing red error messages up on the screen, in case I'm deaf.

there will a lead acid will show a decreasing voltage as it is keeping me suspended above earth where the lithium battery will hum merrily along and then stop!

And if you know that your single alternator has died, you also know that you need to get on the ground soon, where "soon" is a time period you've determined by measuring how long it takes all your aircraft equipment to kill your battery, and then dividing that by your desired safety factor. If you don't know that your alternator has died, then the fact that you can fly for an unknown period of time before things start crapping out on you as the voltage drops to 10, 8, and 6V (apparently without you being aware of that EITHER), isn't going to change the action you needed to take at the time of failure.

See below for info on battery capacity.
 
The third (of two-- or number C) is that the specs for actual discharge of the lithium batteries vs Lead-acid seems to be somewhat confusing as a amp to amp discharge over time without charging is not directly stated.

Not sure what you mean here. You might want to take a look at:


for a comparison of  Lithium vs. Lead Acid starting batteries, which is what we use (PC-680, etc.). At least with the Lithium batteries, the capacity means more, since it doesn't change as much with current draw, and you know that you'll have pretty much full voltage until you get to the ground.

I don't buy your arguments - design your system correctly, and the issues you posit disappear, while getting the advantages of the lighter battery that cranks your engine faster and lasts longer with a similar rating.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace


David A Froble
 

Caviet, I'm not too good with electronics ...

On 5/22/2020 8:23 PM, A R Goldman via groups.io wrote:
A couple of things that bother me about the Earth-Ex

1. their management system specifies a spcific maximum alternator amp
that is acceptable
I have a 100A alternator and would have to downsize it. My ignition,
injection, pumps etc etc are totally electrical so I like not having to
use max alternator capacity, if required. (that may not be a problem
even at a lower charge max)
Is there some way to limit amp to the battery?

2. more important than the first, for me, is the discharge
characteristic. My understanding is that these batteries will produce
close to the rated voltage and when they get to a specific point in
effect disconnect rather than the characteristic of a lead acid battery
slowly decreasing voltage. I am aware that a specific low voltage all of
my electricals will stop or start to throw errors, but in the case of an
unseen alternator failure (remote) there will a lead acid will show a
decreasing voltage as it is keeping me suspended above earth where the
lithium battery will hum merrily along and then stop!
We use fuel gages. Is there not some instruments that can show the charge in a battery? My chain saw will show me roughly the charge remaining in my battery.

The third (of two-- or number C) is that the specs for actual discharge
of the lithium batteries vs Lead-acid seems to be somewhat confusing as
a amp to amp discharge over time without charging is not directly stated.

I wold really want use the LI, because of weight, but these things tend
to make me volt against it, for my application.
Seems to me that used appropriately the Lithium battery can give good service, and a lead acid battery if used inappropriately can have problems. We're just more used to one vs the other.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@...
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486


Dale Martin
 

Marc,

Well said!  The other option for Mr Goldman is to use what ever battery he wants and let those of us that have been enjoying the benefits of the Earth-X battery not worry about the naysayers!!



Dale
For Contact info - See Website
http://www.long-ez.com
=====================>


On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 5:53 PM Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:
Rich Goldman wrote:
 
1.   their management system specifies a spcific maximum alternator amp that is acceptable. I have a 100A alternator and would have to downsize it.

Assuming you're not using electric de-ice on your Aerocanard, to what end do you think that you need 100A of alternator capacity, even if you stick to the recommendation never to use more than 80% of your alternator output for constant loads (not landing gear, landing brake, etc., but IP instruments, lights, etc.)?

I have a completely electric airplane, with a reasonably full panel and electric pretty much everything. I'm pretty sure that when everything is on and running, I pull around 30 - 40A, and thats with Xenon strobe and Nav lights, as well as incandescent landing lights. I cannot imagine
 
My ignition, injection, pumps  etc etc are totally electrical so I like not having to use max alternator capacity, if required. (that may not be a  problem even at a lower charge max)

See above. Ignitions are about 3 - 5A each (and you only have two), and fuel pumps are about the same. EFI is on the same order as well, so you're possibly talking 20A to keep the engine running, and maybe another 15A for the IP, and 10A for lights assuming you use LED's. So 45A max. continuous. You don't need a factor of 2X on a single alternator.

I have a dual bus system, with a 60A alternator on one and a 40A alternator on the other, but these feed two batteries. I only have the 60A because that's what I've had for 18 years and it's working fine - a 2nd 40A would be more than adequate, and each of these alternators charges an ETX-680C EarthX battery, as well as run 1/2 the plane, with the capacity to run the whole plane if one of the anternators went TU.

I'd argue that a single 100A alternator is the issue here, not the batteries.

2.   more important than the first, for me, is the discharge characteristic. My understanding is that these batteries will produce close to the rated voltage and when they get to a specific point in effect disconnect...

That's pretty much correct - when they get to about 5% of their capacity, they'll shut off to protect themselves.
 
rather than the characteristic of a lead acid battery slowly decreasing voltage. I am aware that a specific low voltage all of my electricals will stop or start to throw errors, but in the case of an unseen alternator failure (remote)...

Assuming you're using and engine monitoring system correctly, it's not possible (if you're paying any attention whatsoever to the warning/failure signals from the EMS) to have an "unseen" alternator failure. When your bus voltage drops below the regulator voltage (in my case, 14.2V) you know that your alternator is off-line. The battery when fully charged will sit at about 13.1 - 13.3V, so you've got more than enough margin from the regulator voltage to the battery voltage to know clearly that you've had an alternator failure.

As a backup to that, I have ammeters indicating current into and out of the batteries. When a battery is fully charged and the alternator is working, I see -1A to +1A. When the battery has just been used to start the engine, I'll see 30 - 50A into the battery for about a minute or two, decreasing to 5A and then the standard range within 5 minutes. If I ever see more than -2A flowing OUT of the battery, I also know that the alternator is off-line. So, no such thing as "unseen" alternator failures, particularly since the EFIS/EMS yells in the headset as well as throwing red error messages up on the screen, in case I'm deaf.

there will a lead acid will show a decreasing voltage as it is keeping me suspended above earth where the lithium battery will hum merrily along and then stop!

And if you know that your single alternator has died, you also know that you need to get on the ground soon, where "soon" is a time period you've determined by measuring how long it takes all your aircraft equipment to kill your battery, and then dividing that by your desired safety factor. If you don't know that your alternator has died, then the fact that you can fly for an unknown period of time before things start crapping out on you as the voltage drops to 10, 8, and 6V (apparently without you being aware of that EITHER), isn't going to change the action you needed to take at the time of failure.

See below for info on battery capacity.
 
The third (of two-- or number C) is that the specs for actual discharge of the lithium batteries vs Lead-acid seems to be somewhat confusing as a amp to amp discharge over time without charging is not directly stated.

Not sure what you mean here. You might want to take a look at:


for a comparison of  Lithium vs. Lead Acid starting batteries, which is what we use (PC-680, etc.). At least with the Lithium batteries, the capacity means more, since it doesn't change as much with current draw, and you know that you'll have pretty much full voltage until you get to the ground.

I don't buy your arguments - design your system correctly, and the issues you posit disappear, while getting the advantages of the lighter battery that cranks your engine faster and lasts longer with a similar rating.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace


Don B
 

I questioned the EarthX people what would happen if there safety circuit failed.  I was told there wouldn’t be a fire, but a lot of smoke.  If the battery is in the cabinet there needs to be a way to quickly clear the smoke!


On May 25, 2020, at 11:34 AM, Dale Martin <niceez@...> wrote:


Marc,

Well said!  The other option for Mr Goldman is to use what ever battery he wants and let those of us that have been enjoying the benefits of the Earth-X battery not worry about the naysayers!!



Dale
For Contact info - See Website
http://www.long-ez.com
=====================>


On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 5:53 PM Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:
Rich Goldman wrote:
 
1.   their management system specifies a spcific maximum alternator amp that is acceptable. I have a 100A alternator and would have to downsize it.

Assuming you're not using electric de-ice on your Aerocanard, to what end do you think that you need 100A of alternator capacity, even if you stick to the recommendation never to use more than 80% of your alternator output for constant loads (not landing gear, landing brake, etc., but IP instruments, lights, etc.)?

I have a completely electric airplane, with a reasonably full panel and electric pretty much everything. I'm pretty sure that when everything is on and running, I pull around 30 - 40A, and thats with Xenon strobe and Nav lights, as well as incandescent landing lights. I cannot imagine
 
My ignition, injection, pumps  etc etc are totally electrical so I like not having to use max alternator capacity, if required. (that may not be a  problem even at a lower charge max)

See above. Ignitions are about 3 - 5A each (and you only have two), and fuel pumps are about the same. EFI is on the same order as well, so you're possibly talking 20A to keep the engine running, and maybe another 15A for the IP, and 10A for lights assuming you use LED's. So 45A max. continuous. You don't need a factor of 2X on a single alternator.

I have a dual bus system, with a 60A alternator on one and a 40A alternator on the other, but these feed two batteries. I only have the 60A because that's what I've had for 18 years and it's working fine - a 2nd 40A would be more than adequate, and each of these alternators charges an ETX-680C EarthX battery, as well as run 1/2 the plane, with the capacity to run the whole plane if one of the anternators went TU.

I'd argue that a single 100A alternator is the issue here, not the batteries.

2.   more important than the first, for me, is the discharge characteristic. My understanding is that these batteries will produce close to the rated voltage and when they get to a specific point in effect disconnect...

That's pretty much correct - when they get to about 5% of their capacity, they'll shut off to protect themselves.
 
rather than the characteristic of a lead acid battery slowly decreasing voltage. I am aware that a specific low voltage all of my electricals will stop or start to throw errors, but in the case of an unseen alternator failure (remote)...

Assuming you're using and engine monitoring system correctly, it's not possible (if you're paying any attention whatsoever to the warning/failure signals from the EMS) to have an "unseen" alternator failure. When your bus voltage drops below the regulator voltage (in my case, 14.2V) you know that your alternator is off-line. The battery when fully charged will sit at about 13.1 - 13.3V, so you've got more than enough margin from the regulator voltage to the battery voltage to know clearly that you've had an alternator failure.

As a backup to that, I have ammeters indicating current into and out of the batteries. When a battery is fully charged and the alternator is working, I see -1A to +1A. When the battery has just been used to start the engine, I'll see 30 - 50A into the battery for about a minute or two, decreasing to 5A and then the standard range within 5 minutes. If I ever see more than -2A flowing OUT of the battery, I also know that the alternator is off-line. So, no such thing as "unseen" alternator failures, particularly since the EFIS/EMS yells in the headset as well as throwing red error messages up on the screen, in case I'm deaf.

there will a lead acid will show a decreasing voltage as it is keeping me suspended above earth where the lithium battery will hum merrily along and then stop!

And if you know that your single alternator has died, you also know that you need to get on the ground soon, where "soon" is a time period you've determined by measuring how long it takes all your aircraft equipment to kill your battery, and then dividing that by your desired safety factor. If you don't know that your alternator has died, then the fact that you can fly for an unknown period of time before things start crapping out on you as the voltage drops to 10, 8, and 6V (apparently without you being aware of that EITHER), isn't going to change the action you needed to take at the time of failure.

See below for info on battery capacity.
 
The third (of two-- or number C) is that the specs for actual discharge of the lithium batteries vs Lead-acid seems to be somewhat confusing as a amp to amp discharge over time without charging is not directly stated.

Not sure what you mean here. You might want to take a look at:


for a comparison of  Lithium vs. Lead Acid starting batteries, which is what we use (PC-680, etc.). At least with the Lithium batteries, the capacity means more, since it doesn't change as much with current draw, and you know that you'll have pretty much full voltage until you get to the ground.

I don't buy your arguments - design your system correctly, and the issues you posit disappear, while getting the advantages of the lighter battery that cranks your engine faster and lasts longer with a similar rating.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace


A R Goldman
 

Dale,

It's interesting that you would take my questions as a personal assult/insult.

None was implied. As a matter of fact, if you are able to look into the past exchanges (a couple of years ago, you will find that I was very much in favor of the LI and asking questions despite the large, mostly emotional, wave of negative feelings, fire, etc etc, stating over and over again the difference between the LI types of batteries, which, in most cases was ignored.

My recent questions do not imply that I am against them or recommend against their use in our aircraft, only to question the applicability of their use for my application. I would dearly like to use one.

Looking at the data that Marc linked to, it appears as if the discharge rates of li batteries are considerably better than the Pb.  I do, however,  have to wonder, if this is true, why the earth-x and other li battery manufacturers don't tout this greatly in an effort to increase their  market with their apparently superior products.

It is a dangerous path that we tread when we try to limit questioning of our beliefs.It stops growth and progress.

Happy Memorial day!

Rich 

In a message dated 5/25/2020 1:34:11 PM Central Standard Time, Niceez@... writes:

Marc,

Well said!  The other option for Mr Goldman is to use what ever battery he wants and let those of us that have been enjoying the benefits of the Earth-X battery not worry about the naysayers!!



Dale
For Contact info - See Website
http://www.long-ez.com
=====================>


On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 5:53 PM Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:
Rich Goldman wrote:


1.   their management system specifies a spcific maximum alternator amp that is acceptable. I have a 100A alternator and would have to downsize it.

Assuming you're not using electric de-ice on your Aerocanard, to what end do you think that you need 100A of alternator capacity, even if you stick to the recommendation never to use more than 80% of your alternator output for constant loads (not landing gear, landing brake, etc., but IP instruments, lights, etc.)?

I have a completely electric airplane, with a reasonably full panel and electric pretty much everything. I'm pretty sure that when everything is on and running, I pull around 30 - 40A, and thats with Xenon strobe and Nav lights, as well as incandescent landing lights. I cannot imagine

My ignition, injection, pumps  etc etc are totally electrical so I like not having to use max alternator capacity, if required. (that may not be a  problem even at a lower charge max)

See above. Ignitions are about 3 - 5A each (and you only have two), and fuel pumps are about the same. EFI is on the same order as well, so you're possibly talking 20A to keep the engine running, and maybe another 15A for the IP, and 10A for lights assuming you use LED's. So 45A max. continuous. You don't need a factor of 2X on a single alternator.

I have a dual bus system, with a 60A alternator on one and a 40A alternator on the other, but these feed two batteries. I only have the 60A because that's what I've had for 18 years and it's working fine - a 2nd 40A would be more than adequate, and each of these alternators charges an ETX-680C EarthX battery, as well as run 1/2 the plane, with the capacity to run the whole plane if one of the anternators went TU.

I'd argue that a single 100A alternator is the issue here, not the batteries.

2.   more important than the first, for me, is the discharge characteristic. My understanding is that these batteries will produce close to the rated voltage and when they get to a specific point in effect disconnect...

That's pretty much correct - when they get to about 5% of their capacity, they'll shut off to protect themselves.

rather than the characteristic of a lead acid battery slowly decreasing voltage. I am aware that a specific low voltage all of my electricals will stop or start to throw errors, but in the case of an unseen alternator failure (remote)...

Assuming you're using and engine monitoring system correctly, it's not possible (if you're paying any attention whatsoever to the warning/failure signals from the EMS) to have an "unseen" alternator failure. When your bus voltage drops below the regulator voltage (in my case, 14.2V) you know that your alternator is off-line. The battery when fully charged will sit at about 13.1 - 13.3V, so you've got more than enough margin from the regulator voltage to the battery voltage to know clearly that you've had an alternator failure.

As a backup to that, I have ammeters indicating current into and out of the batteries. When a battery is fully charged and the alternator is working, I see -1A to +1A. When the battery has just been used to start the engine, I'll see 30 - 50A into the battery for about a minute or two, decreasing to 5A and then the standard range within 5 minutes. If I ever see more than -2A flowing OUT of the battery, I also know that the alternator is off-line. So, no such thing as "unseen" alternator failures, particularly since the EFIS/EMS yells in the headset as well as throwing red error messages up on the screen, in case I'm deaf.

there will a lead acid will show a decreasing voltage as it is keeping me suspended above earth where the lithium battery will hum merrily along and then stop!

And if you know that your single alternator has died, you also know that you need to get on the ground soon, where "soon" is a time period you've determined by measuring how long it takes all your aircraft equipment to kill your battery, and then dividing that by your desired safety factor. If you don't know that your alternator has died, then the fact that you can fly for an unknown period of time before things start crapping out on you as the voltage drops to 10, 8, and 6V (apparently without you being aware of that EITHER), isn't going to change the action you needed to take at the time of failure.

See below for info on battery capacity.

The third (of two-- or number C) is that the specs for actual discharge of the lithium batteries vs Lead-acid seems to be somewhat confusing as a amp to amp discharge over time without charging is not directly stated.

Not sure what you mean here. You might want to take a look at:


for a comparison of  Lithium vs. Lead Acid starting batteries, which is what we use (PC-680, etc.). At least with the Lithium batteries, the capacity means more, since it doesn't change as much with current draw, and you know that you'll have pretty much full voltage until you get to the ground.

I don't buy your arguments - design your system correctly, and the issues you posit disappear, while getting the advantages of the lighter battery that cranks your engine faster and lasts longer with a similar rating.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace

 



I. N. Briggs
 

There is a vent tube on the larger and newer versions intended to do exactly that. 



Izzy


On May 25, 2020, at 15:08, Don B via groups.io <donberlin475@...> wrote:

I questioned the EarthX people what would happen if there safety circuit failed.  I was told there wouldn’t be a fire, but a lot of smoke.  If the battery is in the cabinet there needs to be a way to quickly clear the smoke!


On May 25, 2020, at 11:34 AM, Dale Martin <niceez@...> wrote:


Marc,

Well said!  The other option for Mr Goldman is to use what ever battery he wants and let those of us that have been enjoying the benefits of the Earth-X battery not worry about the naysayers!!



Dale
For Contact info - See Website
http://www.long-ez.com
=====================>


On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 5:53 PM Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...> wrote:
Rich Goldman wrote:
 
1.   their management system specifies a spcific maximum alternator amp that is acceptable. I have a 100A alternator and would have to downsize it.

Assuming you're not using electric de-ice on your Aerocanard, to what end do you think that you need 100A of alternator capacity, even if you stick to the recommendation never to use more than 80% of your alternator output for constant loads (not landing gear, landing brake, etc., but IP instruments, lights, etc.)?

I have a completely electric airplane, with a reasonably full panel and electric pretty much everything. I'm pretty sure that when everything is on and running, I pull around 30 - 40A, and thats with Xenon strobe and Nav lights, as well as incandescent landing lights. I cannot imagine
 
My ignition, injection, pumps  etc etc are totally electrical so I like not having to use max alternator capacity, if required. (that may not be a  problem even at a lower charge max)

See above. Ignitions are about 3 - 5A each (and you only have two), and fuel pumps are about the same. EFI is on the same order as well, so you're possibly talking 20A to keep the engine running, and maybe another 15A for the IP, and 10A for lights assuming you use LED's. So 45A max. continuous. You don't need a factor of 2X on a single alternator.

I have a dual bus system, with a 60A alternator on one and a 40A alternator on the other, but these feed two batteries. I only have the 60A because that's what I've had for 18 years and it's working fine - a 2nd 40A would be more than adequate, and each of these alternators charges an ETX-680C EarthX battery, as well as run 1/2 the plane, with the capacity to run the whole plane if one of the anternators went TU.

I'd argue that a single 100A alternator is the issue here, not the batteries.

2.   more important than the first, for me, is the discharge characteristic. My understanding is that these batteries will produce close to the rated voltage and when they get to a specific point in effect disconnect...

That's pretty much correct - when they get to about 5% of their capacity, they'll shut off to protect themselves.
 
rather than the characteristic of a lead acid battery slowly decreasing voltage. I am aware that a specific low voltage all of my electricals will stop or start to throw errors, but in the case of an unseen alternator failure (remote)...

Assuming you're using and engine monitoring system correctly, it's not possible (if you're paying any attention whatsoever to the warning/failure signals from the EMS) to have an "unseen" alternator failure. When your bus voltage drops below the regulator voltage (in my case, 14.2V) you know that your alternator is off-line. The battery when fully charged will sit at about 13.1 - 13.3V, so you've got more than enough margin from the regulator voltage to the battery voltage to know clearly that you've had an alternator failure.

As a backup to that, I have ammeters indicating current into and out of the batteries. When a battery is fully charged and the alternator is working, I see -1A to +1A. When the battery has just been used to start the engine, I'll see 30 - 50A into the battery for about a minute or two, decreasing to 5A and then the standard range within 5 minutes. If I ever see more than -2A flowing OUT of the battery, I also know that the alternator is off-line. So, no such thing as "unseen" alternator failures, particularly since the EFIS/EMS yells in the headset as well as throwing red error messages up on the screen, in case I'm deaf.

there will a lead acid will show a decreasing voltage as it is keeping me suspended above earth where the lithium battery will hum merrily along and then stop!

And if you know that your single alternator has died, you also know that you need to get on the ground soon, where "soon" is a time period you've determined by measuring how long it takes all your aircraft equipment to kill your battery, and then dividing that by your desired safety factor. If you don't know that your alternator has died, then the fact that you can fly for an unknown period of time before things start crapping out on you as the voltage drops to 10, 8, and 6V (apparently without you being aware of that EITHER), isn't going to change the action you needed to take at the time of failure.

See below for info on battery capacity.
 
The third (of two-- or number C) is that the specs for actual discharge of the lithium batteries vs Lead-acid seems to be somewhat confusing as a amp to amp discharge over time without charging is not directly stated.

Not sure what you mean here. You might want to take a look at:


for a comparison of  Lithium vs. Lead Acid starting batteries, which is what we use (PC-680, etc.). At least with the Lithium batteries, the capacity means more, since it doesn't change as much with current draw, and you know that you'll have pretty much full voltage until you get to the ground.

I don't buy your arguments - design your system correctly, and the issues you posit disappear, while getting the advantages of the lighter battery that cranks your engine faster and lasts longer with a similar rating.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace