Weight and balance


Glenn Charles
 


My 17 year Long is dangerously close to completion !!!

BUT . . . , 

Trying to figure out Weight and balance is a nightmare !!!

I read the recent article that says use wing root instead of instrument panel for datum. 

The w/b that came with it was not up to date with changes. 

we weighed the bird and came up with 500 on each main, and 27 on the nose wheel ( with a 32 lb car battery on the instrument panel.

no fuel. 

book says empty weight should be around 750. and Im at 1000 without fuel or people !!

Changed engine from 235 to O-320. So I added 10 lbs of lead ballast to nose.

question # 1. what is acceptable CG for first flight ?   

# 2. acceptable furst flight weight ?

# 3. what should max gross ( full fuel and two people ) be ?

Thanks !!

Glenn

N600EZ





Rich Schleicher
 

Congratulations Glen.  It is a great feeling to get to the finish line on such a long project. Trust me….you will love flying your own build and in time it will reward you with some great experiences. 

Your total weight is a little high but with the addition of the 0320, you should be able to increase the gross weight from the plans built.  I would only use the datum called for from the manual(instrument panel). All of the book formulas are based on this.  I created an excel spread sheet based on my datum measurements and you can add in fuel, pilot weight, baggage weight, etc based on the formula.  As long as your CG is within the break-in period box your CG should be fine for 1st flight.  Others may have 1st flight suggestions but I think 10-15 gal of fuel and you with a safety parachute strapped on and included in your W/B calculation, you should be good to go.


Rich
Long EZ. N8183K


On Sep 4, 2022, at 7:41 PM, Glenn Charles via groups.io <gcm2291@...> wrote:


My 17 year Long is dangerously close to completion !!!

BUT . . . , 

Trying to figure out Weight and balance is a nightmare !!!

I read the recent article that says use wing root instead of instrument panel for datum. 

The w/b that came with it was not up to date with changes. 

we weighed the bird and came up with 500 on each main, and 27 on the nose wheel ( with a 32 lb car battery on the instrument panel.

no fuel. 

book says empty weight should be around 750. and Im at 1000 without fuel or people !!

Changed engine from 235 to O-320. So I added 10 lbs of lead ballast to nose.

question # 1. what is acceptable CG for first flight ?   

# 2. acceptable furst flight weight ?

# 3. what should max gross ( full fuel and two people ) be ?

Thanks !!

Glenn

N600EZ






Keith Spreuer
 

Good advice from Rich but the wing root should be the datum not the instrument panel despite the plans.
Keith

On Sun, Sep 4, 2022, 11:21 PM Rich Schleicher <kenyarich@...> wrote:
Congratulations Glen.  It is a great feeling to get to the finish line on such a long project. Trust me….you will love flying your own build and in time it will reward you with some great experiences. 

Your total weight is a little high but with the addition of the 0320, you should be able to increase the gross weight from the plans built.  I would only use the datum called for from the manual(instrument panel). All of the book formulas are based on this.  I created an excel spread sheet based on my datum measurements and you can add in fuel, pilot weight, baggage weight, etc based on the formula.  As long as your CG is within the break-in period box your CG should be fine for 1st flight.  Others may have 1st flight suggestions but I think 10-15 gal of fuel and you with a safety parachute strapped on and included in your W/B calculation, you should be good to go.


Rich
Long EZ. N8183K


On Sep 4, 2022, at 7:41 PM, Glenn Charles via groups.io <gcm2291@...> wrote:


My 17 year Long is dangerously close to completion !!!

BUT . . . , 

Trying to figure out Weight and balance is a nightmare !!!

I read the recent article that says use wing root instead of instrument panel for datum. 

The w/b that came with it was not up to date with changes. 

we weighed the bird and came up with 500 on each main, and 27 on the nose wheel ( with a 32 lb car battery on the instrument panel.

no fuel. 

book says empty weight should be around 750. and Im at 1000 without fuel or people !!

Changed engine from 235 to O-320. So I added 10 lbs of lead ballast to nose.

question # 1. what is acceptable CG for first flight ?   

# 2. acceptable furst flight weight ?

# 3. what should max gross ( full fuel and two people ) be ?

Thanks !!

Glenn

N600EZ






Marc J. Zeitlin
 

Glenn Charles wrote:

I read the recent article that says use wing root instead of instrument panel for datum.

Yes - this had been discussed a number of times before. The W&B is important for aerodynamic reasons, and until the IP becomes a flying surface, its location is completely immaterial with respect to the flying qualities of the aircraft.

What's important is the relative location of the main wing, canard, fuel, and meat sacks (and baggage, if you have room for it), as well as the main axles and nose axle, since these are what's used to determine the empty (and loaded) CG's.

Since the main flying surface is the wing, using the wing/strake intersection as the datum (and it's the intersection of the straight LE of the strake and the straight LE of the wing that should be used - not some aesthetic curved intersection that some folks have) is the most accurate way to determine the location of everything else on the plane. The IP could be an inch forward or aft of the correct location, and using that as some canonical datum point will throw off everything else - I've seen it numerous times on numerous aircraft. So defining the intersection as FS-113.9 and accurately measuring all the other locations with reference to THAT point will give the most accurate empty CG for flight.

we weighed the bird and came up with 500 on each main, and 27 on the nose wheel ( with a 32 lb car battery on the instrument panel.

So that's an empty weight of 995 lb. - high for an O-320 LE, but not insanely high. Lowest O-320 LE I've seen is about 830 lb, and the highest around 1150 lb. (which is just ridiculous).

book says empty weight should be around 750. and Im at 1000 without fuel or people !!

There is no LE on the planet, even with an O-235 and no starter, that weighs 750 lb.

Changed engine from 235 to O-320. So I added 10 lbs of lead ballast to nose.

You should only add ballast AFTER the W&B is complete so that you know how to ensure the CG is forward of the aft limit during Phase II flight.
 
question # 1. what is acceptable CG for first flight?

The POH clearly describes the conditions for the first flight (first flight box) on page 30 of the 2nd edition. CG between 99" and 101.5", and weight as low as possible (maybe 10 gallons of fuel in each tank, with just the pilot in the plane, and ballast as needed to get to the correct CG.

# 2. acceptable furst flight weight?

See above.
 
# 3. what should max gross ( full fuel and two people ) be ?

It SHOULD be 1425 lb, per the POH. But with a 995 lb. aircraft, that's pretty useless. Many folks fly at 1600 lb, and some up to 1800 lb. Given that the aircraft was designed for 5G at 1325 lb, flying at 1600 lb. reduces (lots of simplified hand waving here) the maximum G load to about 4 (slightly more than normal category). HOWEVER, the landing gear is what will suffer the most with overweight aircraft - if you're landing 100 - 200 lb. over the original MGW of the aircraft, your landings better be pretty smooth, or you're going to be rebuilding the mounting points in a few years.

At 1800 lb, (again with the hand waving) you've got about a 3.7G plane.

Just realize that your takeoff distances will be far longer, landing distances and speeds will be a lot higher and longer, and your stall speeds/approach speeds will be a lot higher when at very high weights.

Use Kevin Walsh's canard flight test protocol:


for your Phase I test cards, and make damn sure you test to all corners of whatever envelope you choose for weight and CG, as you're not allowed to fly in Phase II at a condition you didn't test in Phase I (and you don't want to encounter a condition you've never encountered before with a passenger in the plane. Nothing should be a surprise in Phase II.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2022                     Burnside Aerospace


Bob Holliston
 

I used to own a Varieze that weighed a little over 900 pounds...... with a 320 and 40 pounds of lead in the nose. It flew just fine. 


On Sun, Sep 4, 2022 at 7:41 PM Glenn Charles via groups.io <gcm2291=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

My 17 year Long is dangerously close to completion !!!

BUT . . . , 

Trying to figure out Weight and balance is a nightmare !!!

I read the recent article that says use wing root instead of instrument panel for datum. 

The w/b that came with it was not up to date with changes. 

we weighed the bird and came up with 500 on each main, and 27 on the nose wheel ( with a 32 lb car battery on the instrument panel.

no fuel. 

book says empty weight should be around 750. and Im at 1000 without fuel or people !!

Changed engine from 235 to O-320. So I added 10 lbs of lead ballast to nose.

question # 1. what is acceptable CG for first flight ?   

# 2. acceptable furst flight weight ?

# 3. what should max gross ( full fuel and two people ) be ?

Thanks !!

Glenn

N600EZ






--


Mike Tooze
 


While I agree with Marc on most of what he says I would point out that the leading edge /shrake juncture can be quite variable w.r.t. fuselage station and more importantly to all the centres of lift mentioned.

This is because there can be variance, as Marc says, by some builder's in their fancy 'aesthetic curved intersection' or in my case an attempt to reduce interference drag, masking the required F.S.. Also there will be variations in cord length due to variance from templates used through to core cutting, layups and filler. Hence possibly changing the F.S.at that intersection.


The main, rear, spar is the most regular and stable from a builders' variance point of view. i.e. Most closely 'nailed' to its CoL. (Also in 'build' the canard is generally set r.w.t. the main spar.)

Therefore as the firewall is slap up against the rear spar then I would recommend to use that, the firewall surface, (front surface or rear surface depending on accessibility) as the most near to achieving the notional "Everyones' Eze", Long, Cozy or Vari. Hence is more likely to place most into the same FF Box .


Mike T O-235 Vari Eze





------ Original Message ------
From: "Marc J. Zeitlin" <marc_zeitlin@...>
To: "Canard Aviators" <canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, 5 Sep, 22 At 14:53
Subject: Re: [c-a] Weight and balance

Glenn Charles wrote:

I read the recent article that says use wing root instead of instrument panel for datum.

Yes - this had been discussed a number of times before. The W&B is important for aerodynamic reasons, and until the IP becomes a flying surface, its location is completely immaterial with respect to the flying qualities of the aircraft.

What's important is the relative location of the main wing, canard, fuel, and meat sacks (and baggage, if you have room for it), as well as the main axles and nose axle, since these are what's used to determine the empty (and loaded) CG's.

Since the main flying surface is the wing, using the wing/strake intersection as the datum (and it's the intersection of the straight LE of the strake and the straight LE of the wing that should be used - not some aesthetic curved intersection that some folks have) is the most accurate way to determine the location of everything else on the plane. The IP could be an inch forward or aft of the correct location, and using that as some canonical datum point will throw off everything else - I've seen it numerous times on numerous aircraft. So defining the intersection as FS-113.9 and accurately measuring all the other locations with reference to THAT point will give the most accurate empty CG for flight.

we weighed the bird and came up with 500 on each main, and 27 on the nose wheel ( with a 32 lb car battery on the instrument panel.

So that's an empty weight of 995 lb. - high for an O-320 LE, but not insanely high. Lowest O-320 LE I've seen is about 830 lb, and the highest around 1150 lb. (which is just ridiculous).

book says empty weight should be around 750. and Im at 1000 without fuel or people !!

There is no LE on the planet, even with an O-235 and no starter, that weighs 750 lb.

Changed engine from 235 to O-320. So I added 10 lbs of lead ballast to nose.

You should only add ballast AFTER the W&B is complete so that you know how to ensure the CG is forward of the aft limit during Phase II flight.
question # 1. what is acceptable CG for first flight?

The POH clearly describes the conditions for the first flight (first flight box) on page 30 of the 2nd edition. CG between 99" and 101.5", and weight as low as possible (maybe 10 gallons of fuel in each tank, with just the pilot in the plane, and ballast as needed to get to the correct CG.

# 2. acceptable furst flight weight?

See above.

# 3. what should max gross ( full fuel and two people ) be ?

It SHOULD be 1425 lb, per the POH. But with a 995 lb. aircraft, that's pretty useless. Many folks fly at 1600 lb, and some up to 1800 lb. Given that the aircraft was designed for 5G at 1325 lb, flying at 1600 lb. reduces (lots of simplified hand waving here) the maximum G load to about 4 (slightly more than normal category). HOWEVER, the landing gear is what will suffer the most with overweight aircraft - if you're landing 100 - 200 lb. over the original MGW of the aircraft, your landings better be pretty smooth, or you're going to be rebuilding the mounting points in a few years.

At 1800 lb, (again with the hand waving) you've got about a 3.7G plane.

Just realize that your takeoff distances will be far longer, landing distances and speeds will be a lot higher and longer, and your stall speeds/approach speeds will be a lot higher when at very high weights.

Use Kevin Walsh's canard flight test protocol:


for your Phase I test cards, and make damn sure you test to all corners of whatever envelope you choose for weight and CG, as you're not allowed to fly in Phase II at a condition you didn't test in Phase I (and you don't want to encounter a condition you've never encountered before with a passenger in the plane. Nothing should be a surprise in Phase II.

--


Dale Martin
 

Glenn,

On the Long-EZ or Varieze, the forward face of the Firewall is,,, IS F.S. 125.

From this point you will determine all other Fuselage Station measurements.  
Wing skew from washers or minor builder errors will alter the exact Fuselage Station location.  
Wisdom and experience tells us to make permanent marks on the longerons and annotate them in the owners manual and the weight and balance part of the aircraft records..  The forward side of the instrument panel should be at F.S. 40.  If not, annotated the correct F.S.  You will for sure want to know in the future.

Of course we are going to assume the aircraft is level in the roll and pitch axis.

If you are willing to use up some masking tape, Let me suggest placing tape from 15” in front of the nose to 10” and using this to transfer the F.S. numbers using a plumb bob to the tape.  Once this is accomplished find accurate measurements become less confusing.  You will also need long flat straight edges to “prove” the actual center point of each axle (which BTW may not be the same).

We actually use a brand new Sharpie to make these marks on the floor as well and also write the measurements one the hangar floor.

If you have not installed wheel pants or Baggage pods the same measuring setup process will be done again accept the pitch angle will be 1.5 degrees nose high.



Dale
Long-EZ.com




On Sun, Sep 4, 2022 at 7:41 PM Glenn Charles via groups.io <gcm2291=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

My 17 year Long is dangerously close to completion !!!

BUT . . . , 

Trying to figure out Weight and balance is a nightmare !!!

I read the recent article that says use wing root instead of instrument panel for datum. 

The w/b that came with it was not up to date with changes. 

we weighed the bird and came up with 500 on each main, and 27 on the nose wheel ( with a 32 lb car battery on the instrument panel.

no fuel. 

book says empty weight should be around 750. and Im at 1000 without fuel or people !!

Changed engine from 235 to O-320. So I added 10 lbs of lead ballast to nose.

question # 1. what is acceptable CG for first flight ?   

# 2. acceptable furst flight weight ?

# 3. what should max gross ( full fuel and two people ) be ?

Thanks !!

Glenn

N600EZ




--
Dale
http://www.long-ez.com
=====================>

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” – Edmund Burke.


Glenn Charles
 




On Sep 5, 2022, at 10:31 PM, Dale Martin <Niceez@...> wrote:


Glenn,

On the Long-EZ or Varieze, the forward face of the Firewall is,,, IS F.S. 125.

From this point you will determine all other Fuselage Station measurements.  
Wing skew from washers or minor builder errors will alter the exact Fuselage Station location.  
Wisdom and experience tells us to make permanent marks on the longerons and annotate them in the owners manual and the weight and balance part of the aircraft records..  The forward side of the instrument panel should be at F.S. 40.  If not, annotated the correct F.S.  You will for sure want to know in the future.

Of course we are going to assume the aircraft is level in the roll and pitch axis.

If you are willing to use up some masking tape, Let me suggest placing tape from 15” in front of the nose to 10” and using this to transfer the F.S. numbers using a plumb bob to the tape.  Once this is accomplished find accurate measurements become less confusing.  You will also need long flat straight edges to “prove” the actual center point of each axle (which BTW may not be the same).

We actually use a brand new Sharpie to make these marks on the floor as well and also write the measurements one the hangar floor.

If you have not installed wheel pants or Baggage pods the same measuring setup process will be done again accept the pitch angle will be 1.5 degrees nose high.



Dale
Long-EZ.com




On Sun, Sep 4, 2022 at 7:41 PM Glenn Charles via groups.io <gcm2291=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

My 17 year Long is dangerously close to completion !!!

BUT . . . , 

Trying to figure out Weight and balance is a nightmare !!!

I read the recent article that says use wing root instead of instrument panel for datum. 

The w/b that came with it was not up to date with changes. 

we weighed the bird and came up with 500 on each main, and 27 on the nose wheel ( with a 32 lb car battery on the instrument panel.

no fuel. 

book says empty weight should be around 750. and Im at 1000 without fuel or people !!

Changed engine from 235 to O-320. So I added 10 lbs of lead ballast to nose.

question # 1. what is acceptable CG for first flight ?   

# 2. acceptable furst flight weight ?

# 3. what should max gross ( full fuel and two people ) be ?

Thanks !!

Glenn

N600EZ




--
Dale
http://www.long-ez.com
=====================>

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” – Edmund Burke.


Glenn Charles
 

Are there any ways I could lighten my load ? 

i'm not going to shed all electrics !!!

GM


On Sep 5, 2022, at 11:54 PM, Glenn Charles via groups.io <gcm2291@...> wrote:




On Sep 5, 2022, at 10:31 PM, Dale Martin <Niceez@...> wrote:


Glenn,

On the Long-EZ or Varieze, the forward face of the Firewall is,,, IS F.S. 125.

From this point you will determine all other Fuselage Station measurements.  
Wing skew from washers or minor builder errors will alter the exact Fuselage Station location.  
Wisdom and experience tells us to make permanent marks on the longerons and annotate them in the owners manual and the weight and balance part of the aircraft records..  The forward side of the instrument panel should be at F.S. 40.  If not, annotated the correct F.S.  You will for sure want to know in the future.

Of course we are going to assume the aircraft is level in the roll and pitch axis.

If you are willing to use up some masking tape, Let me suggest placing tape from 15” in front of the nose to 10” and using this to transfer the F.S. numbers using a plumb bob to the tape.  Once this is accomplished find accurate measurements become less confusing.  You will also need long flat straight edges to “prove” the actual center point of each axle (which BTW may not be the same).

We actually use a brand new Sharpie to make these marks on the floor as well and also write the measurements one the hangar floor.

If you have not installed wheel pants or Baggage pods the same measuring setup process will be done again accept the pitch angle will be 1.5 degrees nose high.



Dale
Long-EZ.com




On Sun, Sep 4, 2022 at 7:41 PM Glenn Charles via groups.io <gcm2291=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

My 17 year Long is dangerously close to completion !!!

BUT . . . , 

Trying to figure out Weight and balance is a nightmare !!!

I read the recent article that says use wing root instead of instrument panel for datum. 

The w/b that came with it was not up to date with changes. 

we weighed the bird and came up with 500 on each main, and 27 on the nose wheel ( with a 32 lb car battery on the instrument panel.

no fuel. 

book says empty weight should be around 750. and Im at 1000 without fuel or people !!

Changed engine from 235 to O-320. So I added 10 lbs of lead ballast to nose.

question # 1. what is acceptable CG for first flight ?   

# 2. acceptable furst flight weight ?

# 3. what should max gross ( full fuel and two people ) be ?

Thanks !!

Glenn

N600EZ




--
Dale
http://www.long-ez.com
=====================>

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” – Edmund Burke.


Dale Martin
 

Glenn,

Do you have CF cowls?


Dale



On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 9:59 PM Glenn Charles via groups.io <gcm2291=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Are there any ways I could lighten my load ? 

i'm not going to shed all electrics !!!

GM


On Sep 5, 2022, at 11:54 PM, Glenn Charles via groups.io <gcm2291=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:




On Sep 5, 2022, at 10:31 PM, Dale Martin <Niceez@...> wrote:


Glenn,

On the Long-EZ or Varieze, the forward face of the Firewall is,,, IS F.S. 125.

From this point you will determine all other Fuselage Station measurements.  
Wing skew from washers or minor builder errors will alter the exact Fuselage Station location.  
Wisdom and experience tells us to make permanent marks on the longerons and annotate them in the owners manual and the weight and balance part of the aircraft records..  The forward side of the instrument panel should be at F.S. 40.  If not, annotated the correct F.S.  You will for sure want to know in the future.

Of course we are going to assume the aircraft is level in the roll and pitch axis.

If you are willing to use up some masking tape, Let me suggest placing tape from 15” in front of the nose to 10” and using this to transfer the F.S. numbers using a plumb bob to the tape.  Once this is accomplished find accurate measurements become less confusing.  You will also need long flat straight edges to “prove” the actual center point of each axle (which BTW may not be the same).

We actually use a brand new Sharpie to make these marks on the floor as well and also write the measurements one the hangar floor.

If you have not installed wheel pants or Baggage pods the same measuring setup process will be done again accept the pitch angle will be 1.5 degrees nose high.



Dale
Long-EZ.com




On Sun, Sep 4, 2022 at 7:41 PM Glenn Charles via groups.io <gcm2291=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

My 17 year Long is dangerously close to completion !!!

BUT . . . , 

Trying to figure out Weight and balance is a nightmare !!!

I read the recent article that says use wing root instead of instrument panel for datum. 

The w/b that came with it was not up to date with changes. 

we weighed the bird and came up with 500 on each main, and 27 on the nose wheel ( with a 32 lb car battery on the instrument panel.

no fuel. 

book says empty weight should be around 750. and Im at 1000 without fuel or people !!

Changed engine from 235 to O-320. So I added 10 lbs of lead ballast to nose.

question # 1. what is acceptable CG for first flight ?   

# 2. acceptable furst flight weight ?

# 3. what should max gross ( full fuel and two people ) be ?

Thanks !!

Glenn

N600EZ




--
Dale
http://www.long-ez.com
=====================>

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” – Edmund Burke.

--
Dale
http://www.long-ez.com
=====================>

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” – Edmund Burke.