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[c-a] Change Day VFR only op limitations, was LED lights


Tim Andres
 

Read your operating limits, it probably says “ unless properly equipped” limited to day vfr.
Tim Andres

On May 12, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Del Schier <cozypilot@...> wrote:



All this stuff about landing lights made me realize my Cozy is limited to day VFR only.  Since I have landing, position, strobe and panel lighting how to I get the day VFR only changed to day or night VFR?

 

Del Schier

Cozy IV N197DL

Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL

 

 


Tom Smith
 

You don't need landing lights to fly at night! You do need position lights. That's it. Look it up when you need to get to sleep!


Tom Smith  A&P/IA
Long-EZ N12TS
Cell-707-592-0869
KVCB
KJ6PZN


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Andres <tim2542@...>
To: canard-aviators@canardzone.groups.io
Cc: members@canardzone.groups.io
Sent: Tue, May 12, 2020 6:37 am
Subject: Re: [Canard Zone] [c-a] Change Day VFR only op limitations, was LED lights

Read your operating limits, it probably says “ unless properly equipped” limited to day vfr.
Tim Andres

On May 12, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Del Schier <cozypilot@...> wrote:


All this stuff about landing lights made me realize my Cozy is limited to day VFR only.  Since I have landing, position, strobe and panel lighting how to I get the day VFR only changed to day or night VFR?
 
Del Schier
Cozy IV N197DL
Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL
 
 


Marc J. Zeitlin
 

Tom Smith wrote:

You don't need landing lights to fly at night!

This is correct.
 
You do need position lights.

This is correct.
 
That's it.

This is not correct. You also need anti-collision lights, which implies either a rotating beacon or strobes.
 
Look it up when you need to get to sleep!



--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace


Del Schier
 

Thanks Marc and all,

 

I knew you didn’t need a landing light but all this talk about it made me look at operating limitations indications as I have never flown the Cozy at night. 

 

They say:

(8) This aircraft is to be operated under Visual Flight Rules (VFR), day only.

 

(9) After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or Instrument flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only.

 

Sounds like I am legal to fly at night except 91.205 says:

(6) One spare set of fuses, or three spare fuses of each kind required, that are accessible to the pilot in flight. My fuses are only accessible with nobody in the right seat as they are under the seat, LOL

 

The real issue I have for flying at night is, even though my airpark runway has lighting, there are trees 60’ off my wing tips on short final.  I wonder if my new LED lights will let me see where the trees are.  I guess there is only one way to find out 😊

 

Del Schier

Cozy IV N197DL

Cannon Creek Airpark 15FL

 

 

 

 

From: members@canardzone.groups.io <members@canardzone.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marc J. Zeitlin
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2020 11:57 AM
To: members@canardzone.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Canard Zone] [c-a] Change Day VFR only op limitations, was LED lights

 

Tom Smith wrote:

 

You don't need landing lights to fly at night!

 

This is correct.

 

You do need position lights.

 

This is correct.

 

That's it.

 

This is not correct. You also need anti-collision lights, which implies either a rotating beacon or strobes.

 

Look it up when you need to get to sleep!

 


 

--

Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...

                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/

Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace


Marc J. Zeitlin
 

Del Schier wrote:

Sounds like I am legal to fly at night except 91.205 says:

(6) One spare set of fuses, or three spare fuses of each kind required, that are accessible to the pilot in flight. My fuses are only accessible with nobody in the right seat as they are under the seat, LOL


Keep your spare fuses in an accessible place. I do - then you're legal. It says nothing about whether a blown fuse is accessible, or whether or not you can replace them in flight, or the intelligence of doing so when the airplane has already attempted to set you on fire once. Just make sure you can wave a spare fuse at the guy ramp checking you if that every happens and he asks about your fuses.
 

The real issue I have for flying at night is, even though my airpark runway has lighting, there are trees 60’ off my wing tips on short final.  I wonder if my new LED lights will let me see where the trees are.  I guess there is only one way to find out 😊


If you're 60' off the runway centerline, I'd have to ask you why you're still trying to put the plane on the ground, and not going around. From short final, 60' off the centerline, you're not getting on the ground on that approach...

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace


Tom Smith
 

I was only refuting to the landing light question Marc. There is more to it for other type of planes but for HB thats it.

Tom Smith  A&P/IA
Long-EZ N12TS
Cell-707-592-0869
KVCB
KJ6PZN


-----Original Message-----
From: Marc J. Zeitlin <marc.j.zeitlin@...>
To: members@canardzone.groups.io
Sent: Tue, May 12, 2020 8:57 am
Subject: Re: [Canard Zone] [c-a] Change Day VFR only op limitations, was LED lights

Tom Smith wrote:

You don't need landing lights to fly at night!

This is correct.
 
You do need position lights.

This is correct.
 
That's it.

This is not correct. You also need anti-collision lights, which implies either a rotating beacon or strobes.
 
Look it up when you need to get to sleep!



--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace


Marc J. Zeitlin
 

Tom Smith wrote:

I was only refuting to the landing light question Marc.

And I agreed with you there - no requirement for LL's unless operated for hire, which EAB aircraft are not permitted to do.

There is more to it for other type of planes but for HB thats it.

Unless I"m misunderstanding what your'e saying here, "that's it" isn't correct - see below:

This is not correct. You also need anti-collision lights, which implies either a rotating beacon or strobes.
 
Look it up when you need to get to sleep!

 
The OL's for each EAB (HB is not a category) aircraft will state something along the lines of:

(x) After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with FAR 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only.

While the wording has changed a bit over the years, this is the controlling paragraph, and indicates that for night and/or instrument flight, 91.205 compliance is required. Paragraph (C)(2) of 91.205 requires position lights, as you indicate, but paragraph (C)(3) requires anti-collision lights (which, in our case, is almost always strobes). There is nothing in the OL's or 91.205 that absolves EAB aircraft from this requirement, as it flows from the OL's to 91.205.

Maybe we're saying the same thing and I'm just misunderstanding you.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace


Gene
 

That is my understanding about not needing landing lights also but you must have a way to power the position and anti-collision lights so you are going to be using an electrical system capable of powering them; the new self contained self powered position lights are an interesting option. Also you need some sort of panel lighting to make your instruments visible at night, extra fuses (if used instead of circuit breakers) conveniently located in flight, and an extra source of light (flashlight or light that clips to your hat) on board.  

 As for legality, once the aircraft is equipped with the required equipment, then at least in Central Texas a logbook entry modifying the restriction for VFR day use to allow night VFR operations suffices. Of course you have logged the installation of the night flight equipment and electrical equipment as needed before this entry. Remember, entries for work on experimentals can be done by anyone competent, I was always told to enter my pilot lic number when I sign the logbook entry. Only conditional inspections need be done by an A&P. A DAR requiring TSO equipment on an experimental simply does not know his business.


Marc J. Zeitlin
 

Gene wrote:
 
Also you need some sort of panel lighting to make your instruments visible at night...

While it is certainly reasonable to have lighting to see your instruments, 14 CFR Part 91.205(C) says nothing about requiring instrument lighting.

extra fuses (if used instead of circuit breakers) conveniently located in flight

91.205 does require this.
 
and an extra source of light (flashlight or light that clips to your hat) on board.

and 91.205 says nothing about extra sources of light, however reasonable having one might be.
 
 As for legality, once the aircraft is equipped with the required equipment, then at least in Central Texas a logbook entry modifying the restriction for VFR day use to allow night VFR operations suffices.

Only the federal government determines what is and is not required to legally fly an aircraft at night, or what might be logged. I'd be very interested in hearing what jurisdictional organization in Central Texas believes that they can tell someone what they need to put in their aircraft logbook.

Unless your Operating Limitations (as issued by the FAA, an arm of the federal government (see the "F" in "FAA") state that a logbook entry is required to allow the plane to be used at night/IFR (and there may very well be some OL's that state this, depending upon what year they were issued), no logbook entry is required.
 
Remember, entries for work on experimentals can be done by anyone competent...

There is no requirement for competency - only a signature and a date in the maintenance logs, and a certificate # is one is available.

Only conditional inspections need be done by an A&P.

They are "condition" inspections, not "conditional" inspections - they are not conditional on anything - they inspect the "condition" of the airplane.
 
A DAR requiring TSO equipment on an experimental simply does not know his business.

Some equipment does need to be TSO'd, and some just needs to meet the TSO specification, which some non-TSO'd equipment does. For lighting, a TSO is not needed, but the specifications of the TSO are, and unless the non-TSO MFG is willing to supply documentation that the non-TSO'd equipment meets the requirements of the TSO, a DAR may not be willing to accept your word for it. 

--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace


Joe Dubner
 

Marc J. Zeitlin wrote on 5/13/2020 11:19:
... I'd be very
interested in hearing what jurisdictional organization in Central Texas
believes that they can tell someone what they need to put in their aircraft
logbook. [snip]
Oh, oh -- I know.

The Lubbock FSDO.

Remember, each FSDO is individually owned and operated.

Yes, like most on this forum I obviously have too much time on my hands.

--
Joe


Marc J. Zeitlin
 

Joe Dubner wrote:

Marc J. Zeitlin wrote on 5/13/2020 11:19:
>
> ... I'd be very
> interested in hearing what jurisdictional organization in Central Texas
> believes that they can tell someone what they need to put in their aircraft
> logbook. [snip]

Oh, oh -- I know. The Lubbock FSDO.
Remember, each FSDO is individually owned and operated.

Franchise, like McDonalds, eh? :-).
 
--
Marc J. Zeitlin                      marc_zeitlin@...
                                            http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright © 2020                     Burnside Aerospace


Gene
 

Howdy Joe, you mean the Sweetwater FSDO?? I'm right on the border between what used to be the SA and the Fort Worth FSDOs before they went to the N. Texas / S. Texas setup they have now.  There was a LOT of difference between those two FDSOs in the past and I assume this applies all around the country..

 Now, as for TSO equipment required in an experimental aircraft, this is about the same as the FAA enforcing an AD compliance on an experimental, it can't be done and I do have this on a very good source who wishes he could do something about the VE/LE nosegear fork.
  If I had a DAR (and I have assisted DAR airworthiness inspections) start to invent requirements like requiring TSO parts on an experimental I'd certainly find someone else and  at least put the word out about that particular DAR.. For that matter there are some certificated aircraft that don't require TSO parts.